D&D 5E If you use thunderstep but teleport less than 10 feet do you take damage?

[Lyxen]

You two have been arguing this, with pedantry and sophistry, for over a week?

Indeed, it's a bit a question of principle at least on my part, of people trying to impose specific views on an open edition like 5e. They can do whatever they want in their campaign, but trying, without any support from the actual rules, to claim to have the only interpretation of the Holy RAW is something that I have a problem with. Free your imagination, free your game.

 

[James Gasik]

At one point, Maxperson even threw in the towel, but he was back for the next round. It's just a difference in ideologies I suppose. Every time I'm like "well, it seems that Lyxen is probably wrong, because 5e doesn't split hairs like this", someone will chime in with something I didn't consider, like the Battlemaster's Riposte. I don't think there is a definitive answer- whether that's intentional on WotC's part or laziness is up for the individual to decide.

EDIT: forgot that wasn't in this thread. Here's the link-

D&D 5E - Invisibility, non-instantaneous spells, and spell effects

 

[Maxperson]

I have given you the example of drawing a second weapon. Simple.

The second action isn't a reaction, so not an example of a reaction being faster than an action. Action = action =/= reaction slower than action.

Nethertheless, a second interaction (drawing another weapon) takes your full action. So basically, drawing two weapons including one for free takes your full action.

Okay. Maybe using an off hand is awkward.

Still not an example of a reaction being slower than an action.

This is amusing, once more, the reason is not that teleport is fast or not, is that you don't open yourself to be attacked, since you don't move away. Teleport is not that fast, it takes a full action to cast anyway.

Er, casting time is irrelevant to how fast teleport is. Teleport gets you from one world to another, millions of miles away in half a second. Want to argue again how it's not that fast?

You don't have an instantaneous spell SPLIT into a teleport and a boom then, happening in sequence ?

No. You have a teleport and then a boom that goes off after the teleport happens, which is why it specifies after disappearance and not before disappearance. There is no split.

 

[Lyxen]

At one point, Maxperson even threw in the towel, but he was back for the next round. It's just a difference in ideologies I suppose. Every time I'm like "well, it seems that Lyxen is probably wrong, because 5e doesn't split hairs like this", someone will chime in with something I didn't consider, like the Battlemaster's Riposte. I don't think there is a definitive answer- whether that's intentional on WotC's part or laziness is up for the individual to decide.

For me, it's clearly intentional, the game has been designed to be open, from the natural language instead of specific game jargon (or at least limiting that as much as possible) to the clear intent NOT to do like 4e which was designed to be technically perfect: "An alternative would be for the rules to severely limit what characters can do, which would be counter to the open-endedness of D&D."

It does not mean that the rules are perfect and without mistakes, of course, so the two effects can add on to each other. but for me that openness to support many types of games, not only those who seem "logical" to some people based on personal criterions.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

So weird to insist that the rules of the game are open then tell someone else their interpretation is wrong because the rules don't support the interpretation. What am I missing here? Or is this some advanced debating technique I am currently ignorant of?

 

[Maxperson]

At one point, Maxperson even threw in the towel, but he was back for the next round. It's just a difference in ideologies I suppose. Every time I'm like "well, it seems that Lyxen is probably wrong, because 5e doesn't split hairs like this", someone will chime in with something I didn't consider, like the Battlemaster's Riposte. I don't think there is a definitive answer- whether that's intentional on WotC's part or laziness is up for the individual to decide.

EDIT: forgot that wasn't in this thread. Here's the link-

D&D 5E - Invisibility, non-instantaneous spells, and spell effects

The Battle Master Riposte ability doesn't split an instantaneous effect. It happens in-between attacks, which by RAW are not instant as you can attack, move 5 feet and attack a second time, move 10 feet and attack a third time, then move 15 feet and attack a fourth time. Attacks have time in-between for a reaction like Riposte to occur.

 

[Lyxen]

The second action isn't a reaction, so not an example of a reaction being faster than an action. Action = action =/= reaction slower than action.

And what I'm saying is that an action (drawing two weapons) certainly takes more time than quite a few reactions that one can think about, like attacking someone.

Okay. Maybe using an off hand is awkward.

Tsss, it might be drawing your main hand. It's just the second one that you do. It might actually be just drawing your main hand (which you can usually do for free) but after you opened a door for free. The length of time that any action takes is purely arbitrary for narration.

Er, casting time is irrelevant to how fast teleport is. Teleport gets you from one world to another, millions of miles away in half a second. Want to argue again how it's not that fast?

And how is that relevant to an opportunity attack ? You are not there, it's what counts. Teleport could take one week to get you there and it would not matter, since you would not cross the intervening spell.

No. You have a teleport and then a boom that goes off after the teleport happens, which is why it specifies after disappearance and not before disappearance. There is no split.

Once more, Thunder Step is an instantaneous spell. Do we agree that it's the case ? Netevertheless, it's SPLIT TEMPORALY INTO (AT LEAST) TWO DISTINCT PHASES, which do NOT overlap.

 

[Lyxen]

So weird to insist that the rules of the game are open then tell someone else their interpretation is wrong because the rules don't support the interpretation.

It's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that insisting that there is ONLY ONE interpretation is wrong, it's not the case. I'm not saying the teleport then boom is wrong, I'm saying it's right, but the other one "disappear / boom / appear" is right as well.

What is wrong is insisting that, because of personal preconceptions (rather than actual rules), someone else's interpretation of the pure rules is false.

 

[Maxperson]

And what I'm saying is that an action (drawing two weapons) certainly takes more time than quite a few reactions that one can think about, like attacking someone.

Sure, it takes more time than an attack or can. Some attack happen quickly. Not instantaneous quickly, but more quickly than you can draw two weapons. Other attacks are slower.

And how is that relevant to an opportunity attack ? You are not there, it's what counts. Teleport could take one week to get you there and it would not matter, since you would not cross the intervening spell.

What's not relevant is your argument about intervening space. The only requirement for an OA is "Left reach." Is someone teleporting away leaving reach? Yes. Would that trigger the OA if an instantaneous effect could be interrupted? Also yes. It's exempted from the OA because teleports happen too quickly to react to.

Once more, Thunder Step is an instantaneous spell. Do we agree that it's the case ? Netevertheless, it's SPLIT TEMPORALY INTO (AT LEAST) TWO DISTINCT PHASES, which do NOT overlap.

We agree that the spell once cast is instantaneous. It has exactly two instantaneous phases, the second of which starts a split second after the first one completes. Phase one is teleportation. Phase two is thunder once the teleportation occurs and the caster has disappeared.

 

[Lyxen]

Sure, it takes more time than an attack or can. Some attack happen quickly. Not instantaneous quickly, but more quickly than you can draw two weapons. Other attacks are slower.

So we agree that a standard action which can also actually be something so quick that it can be done while moving or attacking is actually shorter than things can be done as reactions ?

Sorry, but once more, there are simple counterexamples to all your attempts at giving precise durations to any action or action type. None of your constraints are anywhere in the RAW.

What's not relevant is your argument about intervening space. The only requirement for an OA is "Left reach." Is someone teleporting away leaving reach? Yes.

Is someone disengaging leaving reach ? Is someone going invisible leaving reach ? Is someone using etherealness leaving reach ? All of these could be crawling away. Speed has nothing to do with it. Again, you would have to prove that it's the "speed" of teleportation (I'm using quotes) since you have been unable to prove that there is any definitive "speed" to teleportation, teleporting 5 feet in "an instant" with its casting time of one action is actually probably much slower than stepping 5 feet away) that prevents the OA.

Would that trigger the OA if an instantaneous effect could be interrupted? Also yes.

No, it would not, because it's the mode of travel that counts, not the alleged speed.

It's exempted from the OA because teleports happen too quickly to react to.

Again wrong, the PH says: "You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction." Is someone pushing you causing you to move too fast too ? sigh

Honestly, you are now fetching the silliest things just to be able to contradict the RAW...

We agree that the spell once cast is instantaneous. It has exactly two instantaneous phases

So it's indeed SPLIT into two (according to you, for me, there certainly can be three). Thank you for finally admitting this. sigh

, the second of which starts a split second after the first one completes. Phase one is teleportation. Phase two is thunder once the teleportation occurs and the caster has disappeared.

So you have split an instantaneous effect into two instantaneous "phases", congratulations, you have contradicted yourself.