D&D General D&D isn't a simulation game, so what is???

[Micah Sweet]

I just quickly read the description over at DrivethruRPG, but I didn't see anything about the combat system. What, if anything, makes the combat system more simulationist?

I was really talking about worldbuilding, which that game specializes in and is my favorite part of the hobby. Not sure combat is all that much more simulationist.

 

[dave2008]

I was really talking about worldbuilding, which that game specializes in and is my favorite part of the hobby. Not sure combat is all that much more simulationist.

OK, it seems the OP wants more simulationist combat as well. But I might pick that up for the world building, it is only $10

 

[dave2008]

So @DND_Reborn , it seems these are your top choices:

Hero System - $20 (5th edition)

• 6th Edition: Character Creation - $20
• 6th Edition: Combat & Adventuring - $20

GURPS - 5th Edition: Characters $30, Campaigns $25, Fantasy $25
Rolemaster - $20

Which one(s) are you going to check out?

PS - I put all of them in my Cart, just haven't decided which one(s) to pick up yet myself.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That is not an apples to apples comparison. We don't live in the ocean.

Well, you started with the assumption, I was just showing how IRL big creatures have never really been a stopping point for humans. If anything, it is the microscopic ones we need to worry about in general.

In a game of dragons and magic, magic can be more than enough to overcome them; even vast armies without magic might be enough... it just depends on the RPG after all.

Possibly, but from what I can see, most tables do not put any teeth behind that in terms of BHP/wounds/ or whatever you want to call them. A hit isn't any different from a Hit in most D&D games (except death saves I guess) I have seen. It most definitely feels different in our games.

The amount of teeth varies from system to system. I've seen games were a critical hit = a level of exhaustion as well as hp damage. Going to 0 is a level of exhaustion is also a common house-rule. Using the lingering injuries table (suggested RAW) on a critical hit and when going to 0 also creates some interesting complications. The biggest issue with that in 5E is magic cures all.

Other games and house-ruled D&D imposes penalties of other sorts. But most tables don't want death spirals (despite or maybe because of being realistic...).

I should add that HP and BHP recover/heal differently as well.

Sure, just like HP, Wounds, Exhaustion can all heal differently. With your description of hp and bhp, I assumed nothing less.

OK, we did something like that back in our 1e days. But ultimately it just wasn't fun to always miss or have your damage reduced to 0 because of armor. Eventually, a bit of abstraction produced a much more enjoyable game experience for us. Love to hear how it goes for you, everyone is different after all!

Well, if I find a system that does it or come up with a way to mod 5E, I will certainly share my experiences with it.

FWIW, a LONG time ago, my friend, Joe, and I (along with playtesters) created an RPG called "The New Game" (working title LOL) and eventually was dubbed Mortality because the name fit. Long story short, a heavy crossbow in our game did +20 damage (meaning roll %d and add 20) on a hit. EVERY creature in the game has 100 health, of course natural and artificial armor, size, "soak", etc. would reduce damage.

I will never forget, even after we emphasized the lethality of the game, my friend who joined us for a session. He got in a fight with some castle guards and ran, so one shot him with the heavy cross bow. I rolled 93 damage, which became a 113 and even with his leather armor and Stamina (soak) bonus, killed him instantly.

Now, this was basically a "1st-level" newbie type PC, so not much more than a commoner really, so the result was hardly surprising. Even in 5E you could have a 1st-level Rogue with 10 hp get critted by a heavy crossbow and die. But by 2nd level, not going to happen really. You might go to 0, but the hit won't kill you instantly in all likelihood. In Mortality, if you weren't well protected or very tough (high Stamina) it could happen at any time.

I know most RPGs have plot armor in some form, for D&D it is hit points.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So @DND_Reborn , it seems these are your top choices:

Hero System
GURPS
Rolemaster

Which one(s) are you going to check out?

Tomorrow I am going to compile a complete list with all the suggestions and how many people suggested each, and then start with the most common and work my way down.

Something which is mostly medieval "real-life" with a bit of fantasy and magic would appeal to me the most I think. I am certainly not opposed to some abstraction and fly-by-the-moment rulings if the system is robust enough to support those things because the framework is grounded in a more realistic tone.

But when I start looking at them, the level of complexity versus the simulationist impact will be a big factor. For example, take 5E, if it was "twice as complex" so to say about things like gear, survival concepts, speeds, and other measurable things, I would probably be happy with that.

 

[dave2008]

In Mortality, if you weren't well protected or very tough (high Stamina) it could happen at any time.

Yes, that is how we play 5e. You need armor to avoid most hits killing you outright. Since most characters have 6-8 BHP, one good hit takes them down.

I know most RPGs have plot armor in some form, for D&D it is hit points.

Yes, the plot armor of HP is what allows the game to be fun for us. Like I said, always missing just wasn't fun for the players. Technically, in our 5e, they a still missing a whole bunch, we just don't call it that very often.

 

[dave2008]

The biggest issue with that in 5E is magic cures all.

That is an issue with any game that has similar levels of magic to D&D. However, there are several methods to limit this. The one we currently use is every time you heal, magic or otherwise, you must spend a HD. So if you are out of HD, no more magic healing. It works well for us as players spend HD on other things too.

 

[jgsugden]

While I understand and appreciate your point, a lot depends on the RPG and how the "fantasy works".

For instance, dragons in AD&D where NOT (according to the MM1) "8-story monsters". For instance:
View attachment 155420

At large, is 48' long -- so not really 8-stories.

Also, the "melt rock walls".... Why melting rock walls? If your fantasy indicates dragon breath is roughly 1500 C or hotter, then sure, but it is also then melting steel-- so any PC in armor is (literally) toast. FWIW steel will soften and weaken at much lower temperatures (about 600 C IIRC).

For myself, I never imagined dragonfire to be that hot, but I know other people certainly might.

It isn't hard (for me at least) to reconcile powerful magic and fantasy creatures in a game which (otherwise) more simulates real-world use of armor and weapons, capabilities of creatures, and lethality.

OK, when you're trying to tell the guy that set the hypothetical that he did it wrong ... Well ...

My hypothetical is what I was intending it to be. My point was that if you want a game that simulates a realistic version of high fantasy world, with the high fantasy world defined to include things like 80 foot dragons, you're going to be disappointed by one that strives for realistic results. I suggested GURPS as a rule set because it resulted in less fantastic setting elements - and used the comment about an 80 foot dragon to say that following the high fantasy tropes of modern D&D and striving for a more realistic result for what takes place in that setting would be disappointing.

As for melting walls and the heat of Dragonfire, there are a number of sources thart contradict your expectation. In the 5E DMG, we learn that 27 points of damage is enough to destroy a 10 by 10 by 10 hunk of stone. An ancient Red in 5E can deal 91 damage - and a Wyrmling can generate that 27 with a slightly lucky damage roll.

If you want to walk away from 5E rules, look to what we saw of Dragon Breath in Game of Thrones. We saw dragon fire melt thick stone walls nearly instantly. There is an estimate that the Dragonfire in GoT was at least 2400 Farenheit - and that wasn't as bad as uit could have been/. Remember that the dragons we saw there were far from the biggest dragons in that setting's history.

In the end, you can shield anything from reality with an excuse of 'because of magic'. However, doing so inherently negates the 'reality' that you're striving to simulate when you say you want a realistic simulation. The melting people in their armor (as we also saw in GoT) is another example of why this would not be a fun. If I wanted to make D&D more of a realistic game, my first stop would be making sure most creatures kept their current damage totals, but that hps were drastically reduced down to no more than ~10 for medium sized creatures of any level.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yes, that is how we play 5e. You need armor to avoid most hits killing you outright. Since most characters have 6-8 BHP, one good hit takes them down.

Your amount of BHP reminds me of our levels of exhaustion. We added a 6th: Unconscious, and 7th became death. But you get "free levels" based on your CON modifier (which is no longer added to HP...). So, technically with a CON 20, you could take 11 levels of exhaustion (or BHP sort of) before dying as a maximum. The 12th would kill you.

Yes, the plot armor of HP is what allows the game to be fun for us. Like I said, always missing just wasn't fun for the players. Technically, in our 5e, they a still missing a whole bunch, we just don't call it that very often.

And having it as plot armor has gotten to the point of just being annoying for me. In a system where you hit 5% instead of 65%, those additional 60% of "misses" or unsuccessful attacks (which are parried, dodged, ineffective blows, or simple misses) are what hp is. So why bother doing the extra math for it?

THB, I love the idea from d20 SW of Vitality and Wounds as I've said before, but I would want to take it further. Every round (in combat especially) you take an action, you would lose 1 hp, which would represent your energy levels depleting. But, it is too much bookkeeping.

That is an issue with any game that has similar levels of magic to D&D. However, there are several methods to limit this. The one we currently use is every time you heal, magic or otherwise, you must spend a HD. So if you are out of HD, no more magic healing. It works well for us as players spend HD on other things too.

Yeah, it is a problem if you want a low-magic game. I've played around with HD use as well, and we've toyed with other uses of HD, but so far nothing has felt balanced and meeting the goal. Sometime if you want PM your full BHP/HD rules and I'll look them over--maybe it would work well for my group or give me other ideas.

 

[DND_Reborn]

OK, when you're trying to tell the guy that set the hypothetical that he did it wrong ... Well ...

My hypothetical is what I was intending it to be. My point was that if you want a game that simulates a realistic version of high fantasy world, with the high fantasy world defined to include things like 80 foot dragons, you're going to be disappointed by one that strives for realistic results. I suggested GURPS as a rule set because it resulted in less fantastic setting elements - and used the comment about an 80 foot dragon to say that following the high fantasy tropes of modern D&D and striving for a more realistic result for what takes place in that setting would be disappointing.

As for melting walls and the heat of Dragonfire, there are a number of sources thart contradict your expectation. In the 5E DMG, we learn that 27 points of damage is enough to destroy a 10 by 10 by 10 hunk of stone. An ancient Red in 5E can deal 91 damage - and a Wyrmling can generate that 27 with a slightly lucky damage roll.

If you want to walk away from 5E rules, look to what we saw of Dragon Breath in Game of Thrones. We saw dragon fire melt thick stone walls nearly instantly. There is an estimate that the Dragonfire in GoT was at least 2400 Farenheit - and that wasn't as bad as uit could have been/. Remember that the dragons we saw there were far from the biggest dragons in that setting's history.

In the end, you can shield anything from reality with an excuse of 'because of magic'. However, doing so inherently negates the 'reality' that you're striving to simulate when you say you want a realistic simulation. The melting people in their armor (as we also saw in GoT) is another example of why this would not be a fun. If I wanted to make D&D more of a realistic game, my first stop would be making sure most creatures kept their current damage totals, but that hps were drastically reduced down to no more than ~10 for medium sized creatures of any level.

First, my apologies if my response set the wrong tone! My point was simply that how big a dragon is depends on the game/source material, as does how hot its breath might be.

But, as for your sources they are just that--a couple variants/options. For the 5E DMG, a 10x10x10 hunk of solid rock might average 27 hp, but could have up to 50, and would be resistance to fire, doubling it to up to 100, which an ancient Red Dragon might be able to destroy... But you don't really know because 5E is too abstract. How does the AC fit in, combined with the hp? I can't assume every large object made of wood, stone, iron, and adamantine all average 27 hp... I suppose I could, but that is very unrealistic IMO.

For Game of Thrones---never saw it, but I'll take your word on it.

Finally, magic does "break reality" as it is meant to do. And "magic" armor probably wouldn't melt, although you could be roasted alive inside it... Also, my goal isn't to make D&D more realistic, but to find a game which already does so. If I did want to just keep hacking away at D&D, I would agree most people would probably get something like the CON in hp and never a point more.