D&D General D&D isn't a simulation game, so what is???

[Vaalingrade]

illogical results like fire squares.

Blue is a circular effect, red is all squares effected within that effect.

 

[Gadget]

I would say that 3.x was the most simulationist version of D&D, so that might be worth a look. 1e Pathfinder might also be in there. Personally, I have never been a fan of overly simulationist RPGs, but to each his own.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, that just shows that among other things, simulation is pretty low on the priority list of things they care about. As I noted, few modern games not directly derived from older designs put any priority on simulation worth mentioning; they're all about dramatist or gamist choices or a combination of the two.

I know. Further proof that the zeitgeist has moved on from me.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I know. Further proof that the zeitgeist has moved on from me.

Yes, but I think your assumption is that older versions of D&D were significantly simulationist, which as I've noted, never seemed to be particularly true.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, but I think your assumption is that older versions of D&D were significantly simulationist, which as I've noted, never seemed to be particularly true.

They were more simulationist (except 4th), or at least could be looked at in a more simulationist mindset without having to jump through too many mental hoops (for me, anyway). The further the current design philosophy goes, the harder it is to do that.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

They were more simulationist (except 4th), or at least could be looked at in a more simulationist mindset without having to jump through too many mental hoops (for me, anyway). The further the current design philosophy goes, the harder it is to do that.

The question then becomes: Is this a product of a new design ethos (as you have implied here), slowly encroaching upon the formerly-simulationist D&D?

Or is it that D&D was sufficiently hazy and minimal before that you could see the simulationism you wanted in it, and as it has come into greater focus, the metaphorical "error bars" have shrunk until they no longer include (enough) simulationism to satisfy you?

Because I very much think it's more the latter. Hit points, for example, have always been presented as very gamist (by Gygax's own words, hit points cannot be equivalent to meat because that would mean high-level Fighters are more durable than multiple warhorses or some other such thing), but it's only with WotC editions where healing mechanics have come into sufficient focus and specificity that it becomes "unavoidable" to see them as gamist (hence the complaints about "pop up" healing being ridiculous or immersion-breaking).

I don't mean this as a "aha, see, your intent was never part of D&D to begin with!!" Rather, it's to say that perhaps what made D&D "work" for you was simply that it didn't contradict your desire for simulation, rather than that it supported you. In which case, it might be the case that other systems may please you better, if what you would like is actual support, not just avoidance-of-contradiction. (If you do just want to avoid being contradicted by the system, then...it may just be the case that you simply want a loosey-goosey, minimally-formed system...and that may mean sticking to older games that, purely because RPG design was so new, tended to have much looser design than today.)

 

[Micah Sweet]

The question then becomes: Is this a product of a new design ethos (as you have implied here), slowly encroaching upon the formerly-simulationist D&D?

Or is it that D&D was sufficiently hazy and minimal before that you could see the simulationism you wanted in it, and as it has come into greater focus, the metaphorical "error bars" have shrunk until they no longer include (enough) simulationism to satisfy you?

Because I very much think it's more the latter. Hit points, for example, have always been presented as very gamist (by Gygax's own words, hit points cannot be equivalent to meat because that would mean high-level Fighters are more durable than multiple warhorses or some other such thing), but it's only with WotC editions where healing mechanics have come into sufficient focus and specificity that it becomes "unavoidable" to see them as gamist (hence the complaints about "pop up" healing being ridiculous or immersion-breaking).

I don't mean this as a "aha, see, your intent was never part of D&D to begin with!!" Rather, it's to say that perhaps what made D&D "work" for you was simply that it didn't contradict your desire for simulation, rather than that it supported you. In which case, it might be the case that other systems may please you better, if what you would like is actual support, not just avoidance-of-contradiction. (If you do just want to avoid being contradicted by the system, then...it may just be the case that you simply want a loosey-goosey, minimally-formed system...and that may mean sticking to older games that, purely because RPG design was so new, tended to have much looser design than today.)

I am actually using Level Up to scratch my simulationist itch, as it is still nominally 5e, which is all I can get my players to engage in long term. There are many other games I have read an interested in that more overtly simulationist, mostly OSR-based stuff.

My actual first love as a DM is worldbuilding. Any system including detailed material about that is going to draw my attention. My favorite version of D&D, 2nd edition, really cared about that. Their Worldbuilder's Guidebook is still one of my favorite RPG supplements.

 

[dave2008]

I'm not sure where you are drawing the boundary between pursuit and combat. It seems odd that a gazelle doesn't need to roll initiative when a cheetah is bearing down on it!

seems obvious to me

 

[Cadence]

View attachment 155569

Blue is a circular effect, red is all squares effected within that effect.

Do you have a 3d one for the spherical effect showing how it works at different heights? If it's aimed a square off the ground it makes it really easy to duck in the corners if it's a circle. If it is centered on the floor then they'd need to jump.

Should there be saving throw mods on the dex saves for those on the edges?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Do you have a 3d one for the spherical effect showing how it works at different heights? If it's aimed a square off the ground it makes it really easy to duck in the corners if it's a circle. If it is centered on the floor then they'd need to jump.

D&D is and historically has been completely unaware of the existence of a third dimension.

This is why in the past designers and DMs have feared flying PCs beyond the concept of death itself.

This 'issue' also exists in the mess of a weird flower the previous AOE template was.

Should there be saving throw mods on the dex saves for those on the edges?

No.