D&D 5E D&D and who it's aimed at

[Hussar]

According to Wikipedia: "Dystopias are often characterized by rampant fear or distress,[3] tyrannical governments, environmental disaster,[4] or other characteristics associated with a cataclysmic decline in society." That is, like, a really good one-sentence description of the Hyborian Age.

As for the happy farmers, they would have been largely serfs or slaves.

How does that describe Hyboria at all? Yes, there is a tyrannical government, that is overthrown and King Conan takes over, ending tyranical rule. I don't recall any environmental disaster. There is zero sense of a society in decline - most of the societies are growing and thriving. The societies in decline are all decadent or evil. Rampant fear or distress? Where?

Just because a setting isn't a utopia doesn't make it dystopian. A dystopian setting would be a horrifying place to live. There's no sense of that in Hyboria as a whole. Sure, Stygia isn't exactly a bastion of righteousness, but, Aquilonia is pretty nice. Cimmeria isn't described as a horrific place. Harsh, sure, but, again, harsh doesn't make something dystopian.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Yes, but it lacks the visual hook and the presentation left something wanting.

I'm not pretending to be easy to please here.

This seems that it's becoming a theme.

You say "WotC would never do X thing"

Then someone (usually me) says "Actually, they already did something like that"

Then you reply "Yes, but I didn't like that for Y reason"

So, it's not that they've never done the genres/themes that you like . . . it's just that you disliked every instance of them doing that thing for reasons unconnected to the genres/themes themselves.

You like Sword and Sorcery-style campaigns, right? Ghosts of Saltmarsh, Tales from the Yawning Portal, Tomb of Annihilation, and Dungeon of the Mad Mage fulfill much of that genre's themes. Rime of the Frostmaiden has a lot of these themes, too.

You like grimdark/dystopias, right? Ravenloft has that covered. Descent into Avernus has most of that covered. Just ignore the possible redemption of Zariel, and drive home how awful the realm is. Kill Lulu the Hollyphant, or something like that, to demonstrate how irredeemable and awful the realm is.

It's not that WotC actually have never done Sword and Sorcery-style adventures in 5e yet . . . or that they haven't done dystopias/grimdark in 5e yet . . . it's just that you're dismissing and rejecting the examples that have been brought up. Mostly for arbitrary/extremely subjective reasons (whatever the hell "visual hook" or "the presentation left something wanting" means).

 

[Scribe]

Mostly for arbitrary/extremely subjective reasons (whatever the hell "visual hook" or "the presentation left something wanting" means).

How many threads have there been on art style and tone? One for every recent book? We literally went over the style I'm talking about pages ago.

If you dont understand, I'm sorry I'm not able to explain better. Watch the video on the last page maybe.

 

[MGibster]

Every group attempts to shape D&D into their favourite version of fantasy, leaving WoTC trying to please as many fans as possible.

Not me. I realized this was a fool's errand more than 30 years ago when I tried using AD&D for a non-D&D fantasy setting. And I need to be clear here, this isn't a criticism as it's perfectly fine for D&D to be D&D. When I want to play a D&D type fantasy game, D&D is the best game for scratching that particular itch.

How does that describe Hyboria at all? Yes, there is a tyrannical government, that is overthrown and King Conan takes over, ending tyranical rule. I don't recall any environmental disaster. There is zero sense of a society in decline - most of the societies are growing and thriving. The societies in decline are all decadent or evil. Rampant fear or distress? Where?

I'm going to have to agree with my esteemed colleague, the Reverend Hussar, as I do not believe Hyperborea or most of the kingdoms within it it are a dystopia. Life can be tough, but that doesn't make a dystopia.

 

[Malmuria]

Honestly, the game has been moving away from sword and sorcery and toward high, heroic fantasy since 2e. Certainly all of the wotc editions lend themselves more to heroic fantasy. You can modify base-5e at least to make it more low-magic and institute all kinds of restrictions to make it more that style. But that has nothing to do with so-called disneyfication or recent trends, that’s been going on for a while

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

How many threads have there been on art style and tone? One for every recent book? We literally went over the style I'm talking about pages ago.

If you dont understand, I'm sorry I'm not able to explain better. Watch the video on the last page maybe.

Yeah . . . I don't get what you're trying to say. That because 5e books don't have near-naked adventurers in the art, somehow you can't play Sword and Sorcery style campaigns? The art doesn't prevent you from using the content in the book however you want to use it. There is absolutely nothing in Rime of the Frostmaiden keeping you from acting like Conan and setting free the people that the townsfolk are going to sacrifice to Auril.

I've only read like a dozen or so Conan books, but from what I've read, Rime of the Frostmaiden fits perfectly with a lot of his adventures. Tomb of Annihilation fits pretty well, too. A ton of the enemies are evil mages, the wilderness is brutal and always trying to kill you, you venture into ancient ruins to get treasure and fight monsters, the towns that you go to are ruled over by corrupt/awful leaders, you can pick up NPCs as sidekicks/followers, and you have to fight a ton of otherworldly monsters (demons, undead, aberrations, literal gods, etc).

You can absolutely play a Conan-style adventure in Tomb of Annihilation and Rime of the Frostmaiden. The fact that the people in the artwork are fully clothed doesn't stop you from doing that.

 

[Scribe]

That because 5e books don't have near-naked adventurers in the art, somehow you can't play Sword and Sorcery style campaigns?

I literally didnt say that. You either are skipping over posts, and there are a lot I dont blame you, or you are misrepresenting the argument. I'm not saying I couldnt take 5e, change it up where I wish, and play a Sword and Sorcery game.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I literally didnt say that. You either are skipping over posts, and there are a lot I dont blame you, or you are misrepresenting the argument. I'm not saying I couldnt take 5e, change it up where I wish, and play a Sword and Sorcery game.

Were you not saying that WotC won't/haven't published a Sword and Sorcery style 5e book?

 

[Greg Benage]

How does that describe Hyboria at all? Yes, there is a tyrannical government, that is overthrown and King Conan takes over, ending tyranical rule. I don't recall any environmental disaster. There is zero sense of a society in decline - most of the societies are growing and thriving. The societies in decline are all decadent or evil.

I do kind of wonder what your exposure to Conan has been. I'm guessing the novels and/or the comics? In any case, Conan becomes king of Aquilonia, but a) it's not at all clear that he isn't a tyrant, and b) it's just one kingdom. The Hyborian Age is lousy with tyrants! Second, the beginning of the Hyborian Age is literally defined by an environmental disaster.

And finally, the one, central theme of the stories is corruption, decadence and decline of civilization. So yes, the jeweled cities of the age are flourishing...and also doomed to fall (or really, be conquered by younger, more virile peoples) by their own internal decay. "One of the most common themes in Howard's writing is based on his view of history, a repeating pattern of civilizations reaching their peak, becoming decadent, decaying and then being conquered by another people. Many of his works are set in the period of decay or among the ruins the dead civilization leaves behind."

 

[Scribe]

Were you not saying that WotC won't/haven't published a Sword and Sorcery style 5e book?

That matches the look I'm talking about, where the Players are anything less than heroic?

No, I dont believe they will, and I've already gone over why. However I've been assured that perhaps I just need to wait my turn, and that I should be happy with what small things I do have still so as I noted yesterday, or the day before...

Feel free to @ me when we get one, and @ me again when we get a Planescape book that focuses on Alignment, the Planes, and petty debates between the Gods and gloat in how I was wrong, and Wizards was just taking its time to cover what I want.