M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

[Mercurius]

Occultism and esotericism are Fascist adjacent, historically...

This is a bit misleading, imo. The vast majority of people into occultism and esotericism are not fascist in any way, or at least no more so than anyone else. It is just that there are certain types of occultism that fascists tend to be drawn to, and of course the well-known fascination of Hitler with the occult (and if Hitler had played with Legos, no one would be saying "Legos and fascism are adjacent").

And of course there is all sorts of misunderstanding of occult and esoteric doctrines, twisting them to fit fascist ideology.

And of course it should be mention that occultism and esotericism are huge fields, with an enormous range, to the point that connecting them to fascism is not unlike connecting philosophy or religion to fascism. It is just too broad, so that the connection is essentially meaningless.

 

[Parmandur]

This is a bit misleading, imo. The vast majority of people into occultism and esotericism are not fascist in any way, or at least no more so than anyone else. It is just that there are certain types of occultism that fascists tend to be drawn to, and of course the well-known fascination of Hitler with the occult (and if Hitler had played with Legos, no one would be saying "Legos and fascism are adjacent").

And of course there is all sorts of misunderstanding of occult and esoteric doctrines, twisting them to fit fascist ideology.

And of course it should be mention that occultism and esotericism are huge fields, with an enormous range, to the point that connecting them to fascism is not unlike connecting philosophy or religion to fascism. It is just too broad, so that the connection is essentially meaningless.

As I said, it is not one-to-one, and there are plenty of non-Fascist esotericists. However, the Venn diagram overlap is strong enough to make this, as I said, disappointing but not as surprising as one may wish it to be. Umberto Eco's classical analysis of "Ur-Fascism" does delve into the connecting tissue, which can besummarized with his pithy line:

"If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine, who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge -- that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism."

Umberto Eco

'Eternal Fascism', an essay by Umberto Eco, brought to you by www.aechive.8m.net

archive.8m.net

 

[Mercurius]

As I said, it is not one-to-one, and there are plenty of non-Fascist esotericists. However, the Venn diagram overlap is strong enough to make this, as I said, disappointing but not as surprising as one may wish it to be. Umberto Eco's classical analysis of "Ur-Fascism" does delve into the connecting tissue, which can besummarized with his pithy line:

"If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine, who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge -- that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism."

Umberto Eco

'Eternal Fascism', an essay by Umberto Eco, brought to you by www.aechive.8m.net

archive.8m.net

That's an interesting piece. I can't really adequately respond to it without teetering on the edge of forum rules. But yeah, I don't really agree with that Eco quote, or at least think it is a bit over-reaching. I don't find New Agers to be more inherently fascist than other groups, or at least it is very benign, non-autocratic, and everyone is invited to the Ascension, new Golden Age, or what have you. Oh wait, meaning it isn't fascism! So I think a lot of Eco's underlying argument is "modernism is good, traditionalism--or anything not modernist/scientific/academic--is bad."

But again, some fascists have been drawn to certain strains of occultism, especially as pertains to the polar (or Hyperborean) mythos. See, for instance, Joscelyn Godwin's book, Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival.

 

[Parmandur]

That's an interesting piece. I can't really adequately respond to it without teetering on the edge of forum rules. But yeah, I don't really agree with that Eco quote, or at least think it is a bit over-reaching. I don't find New Agers to be more inherently fascist than other groups, or at least it is very benign, non-autocratic, and everyone is invited to the Ascension, new Golden Age, or what have you. Oh wait, meaning it isn't fascism! So I think a lot of Eco's underlying argument is "modernism is good, traditionalism--or anything not modernist/scientific/academic--is bad."

But again, some fascists have been drawn to certain strains of occultism, especially as pertains to the polar (or Hyperborean) mythos. See, for instance, Joscelyn Godwin's book, Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival.

Yes, that's what I'm saying: it is not an absolute trend, but the overlap is historically notable, so the Barker revelations are consistent.

 

[MGibster]

We really are exhausting the world's supply of Copium by claiming that "We can't be sure he was a Nazi! He only wrote Turner Diaries 2: Electric Boogaloo and served on the board of a holocaust denial organization for over a decade, that could happen to anyone!"

I think denial is just one of the coping mechanisms people use to deal with this kind of revelation though I don't think it's a particularly healthy one. Disengaging from the material they once loved is also a coping mechanism. I think we, as a whole, are still trying to figure out how to come to terms with the knowledge that some of the things we love and enjoy very much were created by people with values that run contrary to our own. I don't have a dog in this race, while I know Tekumel exists I know very little about it, and even without this recent revelation regarding Barker, the odds of me ever getting into it were between slim and none. For the most part, I've come to accept that there are some right bastards who created some of the things I loved, and I'm comfortable engaging their work on my own terms.

 

[Mercurius]

I think denial is just one of the coping mechanisms people use to deal with this kind of revelation though I don't think it's a particularly healthy one. Disengaging from the material they once loved is also a coping mechanism. I think we, as a whole, are still trying to figure out how to come to terms with the knowledge that some of the things we love and enjoy very much were created by people with values that run contrary to our own. I don't have a dog in this race, while I know Tekumel exists I know very little about it, and even without this recent revelation regarding Barker, the odds of me ever getting into it were between slim and none. For the most part, I've come to accept that there are some right bastards who created some of the things I loved, and I'm comfortable engaging their work on my own terms.

To respond to the highlighted part, I think that is true, but part of the problem is the common notion that we all must collectively agree with what the right response is, as if we must agree upon what is good and true and all conform to that. It is a form of OneTrueWayism that is common within just about any community.

I don't think there is a single, right way for everyone to respond. We don't have to agree or have the same response. If one person who loves Tekumel will now boycott it, that's fine. If another still loves their Tekumel books, that's fine too. And we should be tolerant, imo, of this fact: that different people will respond differently, and not being offended in the same way we are, or being offended when we're not, isn't necessarily a moral failing or something that threatens us.

 

[aramis erak]

I would be horrified to actually fireball a group of people, even if they meant me harm. But that's not actually happening. There are a lot of things that we ignore to play, because the real world is rough enough.

There are a lot of veterans who would, in the moment, not hesitate to use a fireball in defense of self, family, and unit... might bug them days to decades later, but not at the moment.
The military trains killers. It takes normal folk, most of whom are reticent to kill, and overrides that key "Thou shalt not murder" commandment - sometimes by logic & justification, sometimes by rote training.
Prior to the 16th C, the military was largely a caste - the gentry - with its knights and minor lords, and their trained men at arms as a second, larger, caste. But they trained from youth to be ready to kill fellow men. And lived in a society where the meat on the table was living the day before, sometimes even a near-pet. Everyone knew that lives depended upon the deaths of lesser beings, so the justification of the neighboring ethnic group as lesser beings put their lives right down there with sheep, cattle, dogs, and wolves, by behavior.

I don't think there is a single, right way for everyone to respond. We don't have to agree or have the same response. If one person who loves Tekumel will now boycott it, that's fine. If another still loves their Tekumel books, that's fine too. And we should be tolerant, imo, of this fact: that different people will respond differently, and not being offended in the same way we are, or being offended when we're not, isn't necessarily a moral failing or something that threatens us.

And yet, many have taken positions that to not condemn the whole corpus is to approve the whole corpus and beliefs of the man behind it.

I've seen enough to think it more likely than not that Barker was at some level a neofascist. But I'll still note that the racism common to it didn't surface in his professional life (it would have been news), and didn't appear to factor in to his dealing with fans, so I still question the level of commitment to it Barker may have had.

The political discussion is actually more interesting and enlightening than the original topic, too bad it's in prohibited turf.

I will say that there's not yet been an LG society detailed in a product I've read that isn't a dystopia to me. Most of the societies described in fantasy games are dystopian; if they weren't, there would be no adventure there...

 

[Mercurius]

And yet, many have taken positions that to not condemn the whole corpus is to approve the whole corpus and beliefs of the man behind it.

Yeah, I know, and it is unfortunate and very black and white.

I've seen enough to think it more likely than not that Barker was at some level a neofascist. But I'll still note that the racism common to it didn't surface in his professional life (it would have been news), and didn't appear to factor in to his dealing with fans, so I still question the level of commitment to it Barker may have had.

Yeah, I have no idea. But most people tend to have views that are reprehensible to someone, and I think actions are louder than words. Still, it is a weird thing: harboring such views and feeling the need to release them to the world in an anonymous way.

The political discussion is actually more interesting and enlightening than the original topic, too bad it's in prohibited turf.

I will say that there's not yet been an LG society detailed in a product I've read that isn't a dystopia to me. Most of the societies described in fantasy games are dystopian; if they weren't, there would be no adventure there...

Ha, agreed. But I always get Chaotic Good on alignment quizzes, so to me LG smacks of overly restrictive.

But it is strange to me that people want to remove certain bad things from game worlds. I mean, part of the point of D&D is to face bad things and find a way to defeat them.

 

[Baron Opal II]

There are a lot of veterans who would, in the moment, not hesitate to use a fireball in defense of self, family, and unit... might bug them days to decades later, but not at the moment.

Well, yes. I'm also not a veteran. My point is that what we do in games and the places games portray are often, if not usually, very different from our everyday lives.

 

[Parmandur]

I've seen enough to think it more likely than not that Barker was at some level a neofascist. But I'll still note that the racism common to it didn't surface in his professional life (it would have been news), and didn't appear to factor in to his dealing with fans, so I still question the level of commitment to it Barker may have had.

I don't know that we have enough information to say that with confidence.