M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

[Parmandur]

Yeah, I have no idea. But most people tend to have views that are reprehensible to someone, and I think actions are louder than words. Still, it is a weird thing: harboring such views and feeling the need to release them to the world in an anonymous way.

Well, there are opinions and views...but some things are right out.

 

[dragoner]

Here is me, dying in the Holocaust

Robert Brandt | Database of victims | Holocaust

Holocaust.cz portal represents a comprehensive and unique source of information on the topic of the Holocaust, racism and anti-semitism.

www.holocaust.cz

I don't want to think about someone who would do this to me, and won't touch their game again. It is not radical at all, people made their choices to be nazis, so they can suffer the consequences. It is a shame, the setting was very detailed, it is what it is though. There are plenty more games to be had, new ones being made everyday.

 

[Hussar]

For some people, it is very much a moral choice. If you think that it is immoral to support Nazi's, then, well, that's pretty much the end of the conversation right there. Doesn't really matter if the person who is a Nazi is a shoemaker or a game maker or whatever. By buying things from that person, one is supporting them and thus supporting their views, even if it is indirectly.

For others, it's more of a separation. The author and the work are separate and should be judged separately.

And it's a really, really complicated issue that gets very heated, very quickly. Because, well, where do you draw the line? How much of modern technology is the result of Nazi scientists? All those scientists that got snapped up after WWII - they weren't all being forced to work. Some of them had to be Nazis as well. Do we boycott flying on a modern aircraft? So on and so forth.

I'm not pretending to have an answer here. The answer will always be personal. I don't really blame either side of the issue here. It's just something to keep in mind when talking about things like this. Respect works. Keep up the conversation, but, don't denounce or attack. Or, at least try not to anyway. Be kind to each other.

My personal view is that the best thing for things like this is to hand it to creative people that the creator would absolutely hate and have them bring it forward. Let some gay, black female, immigrant writer publish Lovecraft stories and celebrate her. Support the authors that can take the good ideas of the work, strip away all the stuff that makes it an issue, and bring it forward. It's the best kind of revenge in my mind.

 

[dragoner]

I'm just dealing with what is in front of me, not going to argue about someone else. I mean, von Braun? He was an SS General who slave labored thousands to their death, and was the architect of the V2 Blitz on London and Antwerp that killed thousands of civilians. The British would have hanged him if he wasn't swept up by the US. The record kind of speaks for itself there, and still in the space enthusiast communities one gets people trying to defend him.

Life is short though, I can only control what is in front of me, and I am not a crusader. So I'll be a cat, knock that game from in front of me, and find something else. I actually feel kind of sorry for who does pick it up, because then they are going to have to have an uncomfortable conversation at some point. Yes indeed they can look very bad, it's a minefield.

 

[Hussar]

I'm just dealing with what is in front of me, not going to argue about someone else. I mean, von Braun? He was an SS General who slave labored thousands to their death, and was the architect of the V2 Blitz on London and Antwerp that killed thousands of civilians. The British would have hanged him if he wasn't swept up by the US. The record kind of speaks for itself there, and still in the space enthusiast communities one gets people trying to defend him.

Life is short though, I can only control what is in front of me, and I am not a crusader. So I'll be a cat, knock that game from in front of me, and find something else. I actually feel kind of sorry for who does pick it up, because then they are going to have to have an uncomfortable conversation at some point. Yes indeed they can look very bad, it's a minefield.

Oh, totally agree. It's a personal choice and it's a difficult one. And, there's absolutely no right answer. Where you draw the line is always going to be a compromise somewhere. Don't support anything that was created by Nazi's? Okay, fair enough, but, what about the loads and loads of people who were/are Nazi adjacent? They held/hold views that are ... let's phrase this as questionable but weren't full blown supporters of Nazi's or the Alt-right. Do you refuse to have anything to do with them? How about people who do have something to do with them? Do you refuse to have anything to do with them too? It becomes a really twisted game of 7 Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

The only thing we can do, and I agree with you @dragoner, is deal with what's in front of you right now. And be willing to have this same (or very similar) conversation a LOT of times going forward.

 

[pemerton]

For some people, it is very much a moral choice. If you think that it is immoral to support Nazi's, then, well, that's pretty much the end of the conversation right there. Doesn't really matter if the person who is a Nazi is a shoemaker or a game maker or whatever. By buying things from that person, one is supporting them and thus supporting their views, even if it is indirectly.

<snip>

Be kind to each other.

Is the penalty for being a National Socialist death? Even the victors in WWII didn't take that view! So presumably the shoemaker is entitled to subsistence in some form or other. And in a market economy that means doing some sort of work that someone else will pay for; and being able to purchase food, housing and healthcare from others.

 

[aramis erak]

Is the penalty for being a National Socialist death? Even the victors in WWII didn't take that view! So presumably the shoemaker is entitled to subsistence in some form or other. And in a market economy that means doing some sort of work that someone else will pay for; and being able to purchase food, housing and healthcare from others.

Many now want it to have been. I find them as disgustingly uncharitable and inhumane as the war criminals.

The extremes at both ends want the cadet branches of their opposite removed from society; the question of "how to remove them" is a good measure of how far out people are from center.

Which can be very useful in constructing settings... remembering that the visible minorities are just that: minorities. Just because king's a paladin doesn't mean the average person in town is LG... Likewise, the Headman of the village being a right LE B*****d doesn't mean the peasants are LE, either. Most are probably NG or LN, with a few NE thrown in...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So presumably the shoemaker is entitled to subsistence in some form or other. And in a market economy that means doing some sort of work that someone else will pay for; and being able to purchase food, housing and healthcare from others.

In other similar contexts, I’ve made the point that the person may be entitled to a living, but it may not be the kind of living he would otherwise choose.

To use a hypothetical, if someone were a highly skilled computer programmer who- for whatever reasons- doxxed a bunch of people who got killed, got caught, convicted, and did his time, he may be legally barred from ising any kind of networked technology. That person may find the only jobs anyone will hire him for are manual labor positions.

 

[Hussar]

Is the penalty for being a National Socialist death? Even the victors in WWII didn't take that view! So presumably the shoemaker is entitled to subsistence in some form or other. And in a market economy that means doing some sort of work that someone else will pay for; and being able to purchase food, housing and healthcare from others.

Again, sorry if I wasn't clear, I wasn't arguing one way or the other. As I said, it's complicated and will likely be a very personal choice.

I mean, if I know that someone hates Japanese people, for example, I'm very unlikely to give them my business because they hate my children. Is that person entitled to subsistence in some form or other? Probably. But, it likely won't come from me.

OTOH, I've had students in my classes over the years who have voiced some incredibly racist things. Jaw droppingly racist, at least for me who had never been exposed to that sort of thing in the past. And, at the time, there wasn't much I could do about it - these are students who are paying my boss for English lessons. Me blasting them in class isn't going to help anything, nor was I in a position to excuse myself from teaching that class. It was incredibly uncomfortable. Still not sure what I could have done differently.

So, when your student looks you in the eye and tells you about those dirty ____ who do all sorts of bad things and should all be packed up on a boat and sent back where they came from, it does present something of a challenge. Or the local business association who comes to you and asks you to translate "No foreigners served here" signs for the restaurants in town. At least that one I managed to convince people that that was a REALLY bad idea.

You do what you can.

 

[pemerton]

In other similar contexts, I’ve made the point that the person may be entitled to a living, but it may not be the kind of living he would otherwise choose.

There are interesting points raised by this, but because it probably moves into an overly political terrain I'll refrain from a substantive reply! (Which would not necessarily be disagreement - but to repeat myself, I'll leave it there.)

I wasn't arguing one way or the other. As I said, it's complicated and will likely be a very personal choice.

I mean, if I know that someone hates Japanese people, for example, I'm very unlikely to give them my business because they hate my children. Is that person entitled to subsistence in some form or other? Probably. But, it likely won't come from me.

Bernard Williams has an interesting discussion of some of the moral issues around substitutability in a market economy in one of his anti-utilitarianism essays (maybe in Moral Luck? or in his contribution to Utilitarianism: For and Against - spoiler alert: he's against!).

I've taught, and supervised, students with very different political and moral views from mine. That's part of my job. I've also had students thank me for the way I've approached topics like colonialism and history in my classes. Doing my best to teach truth rather than ideology is also part of my job. The prevalence of ideology is a complicating factor in inferring from someone's expressed views to their deep moral centre. (Which is not to say that MAR Baker was a victim of ideology. I suspect his eyes were wide open. I'm speaking in more general terms around the matters you've raised, while trying not to violate board rules.)

A friend of mine, who is in a same-sex partnership, had a parent who voted against same-sex marriage in the plebiscite held on that issue. My friend was, naturally, very upset, but to the best of my knowledge hasn't cut of mum as a result.

I've only ever had one colleague whose political views - including views about the history of the British Empire - I felt were a bar to a friendship. That said, to the best of my knowledge he voted for a completely mainstream political party. I don't think I've ever interacted with someone literally committed to National Socialism, except in the context of political rallies.