M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

[Parmandur]

Heaven forbid we expect parents to do a little parenting. This is a remarkably similar argument to those who don't want to see gay characters on television. How do I explain that to my children? I don't have kids, but it seems trivially easy to explain Vick: Michael Vick did a bad thing and he was punished for it. But now that his punishment is over, as long as he continues to behave himself he's free to live his life. Just because you've done something bad, doesn't mean we have to keep punishing someone forever.

Yeah,but if that parenting involves "changing the channel," then it hurts the NFL bottom line. Hence the controversy: comply with community standards, or suffer the commercial consequences. Free market capitalism in action.

 

[MGibster]

Yeah,but if that parenting involves "changing the channel," then it hurts the NFL bottom line. Hence the controversy: comply with community standards, or suffer the commercial consequences. Free market capitalism in action.

The NFL is actually a not-for-profit organization with the for profit entities being the individual teams. How many people do you think turned the channel because they didn't want to do any parenting? Do you think it hurt the Eagles' bottom line when Vick returned? It doesn't really matter. It might be true, but it's hardly a moral argument any more than "I don't want to explain gay people to my kids" is a moral argument.

 

[Parmandur]

The NFL is actually a not-for-profit organization with the for profit entities being the individual teams. How many people do you think turned the channel because they didn't want to do any parenting? Do you think it hurt the Eagles' bottom line when Vick returned? It doesn't really matter. It might be true, but it's hardly a moral argument any more than "I don't want to explain gay people to my kids" is a moral argument.

I mean, people were complaining saying "I'm going to change the channel if you keep paying this creep," and that is parenting: that was the controversy, people doing parenting in a capitalist society. They can hire him, nobody is obligated to subsidize the Eagles or him. Though I cut off the NFL completely over health issues related to longterm damage to players: if I wouldn't let my son play football, why would I lend any support to anyone else committing self-harm?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Heaven forbid we expect parents to do a little parenting. This is a remarkably similar argument to those who don't want to see gay characters on television. How do I explain that to my children? I don't have kids, but it seems trivially easy to explain Vick: Michael Vick did a bad thing and he was punished for it. But now that his punishment is over, as long as he continues to behave himself he's free to live his life. Just because you've done something bad, doesn't mean we have to keep punishing someone forever.

I agree. However, I still wouldn’t want to be the one explaining to a preteen why people are cheering an animal killer. It’s not the most difficult job in parenting, but it’s not an easy one.

To be clear, I agree he did his time and paid his punishment. I even cheered his return to the league…on the condition that he “go forth and sin no more.”

But just because he did so, it does not follow that he has to be accepted back into the fold. Everyone else involved has a right to choose between associating with him or not. His coaches & teammates have a say. Other teams, coaches and players in the league have a say. The league itself has a say. The fans and corporate partners and sponsors have a say.

He has a right to be able to feed, clothe and house himself, but he doesn’t have a right to be paid millions to throw and run with a football for millions of dollars a year.

Entertainment industry jobs- particularly the ones in front of cameras and microphones- have a very high profile that tends to magnify the good & bad that the members do.

And the public’s appetite for forgiveness/tolerance of any particular kind of behavior waxes and wanes. I guarantee you, before players like Vick had a right to play in the NFL, there were players who engaged in dogfighting just like he did. Before the 1990s, athletes’ drug and domestic violence issues were generally not widely publicized, but neither were they secrets. And they rarely cost anyone a job.

These days? The bar is MUCH lower. And I don’t have a problem with that.

Lastly, pro tip: it’s not a good look to be drawing parallels between condemnation of past criminal behaviors and being LGBTQ, even if the arguments are the same in form.

 

[MGibster]

He has a right to be able to feed, clothe and house himself, but he doesn’t have a right to be paid millions to throw and run with a football for millions of dollars a year.

And I think this is the rub. He still managed to have a good career in the public eye and make a lot of money. But out of curiosity, how successful should we allow people like Michael Vick to be? He's got a right to be able to feed, clothe, and house himself, but should we prevent him from having nice clothes, living in a decent neighborhood, or being able to afford prime rib on Christmas?

Lastly, pro tip: it’s not a good look to be drawing parallels between condemnation of past criminal behaviors and being LGBTQ, even if the arguments are the same in form.

I'll make 'em when I think they're applicable. "Won't somebody think of the children" is rarely a good argument.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

He's got a right to be able to feed, clothe, and house himself, but should we prevent him from having nice clothes, living in a decent neighborhood, or being able to afford prime rib on Christmas?

He has a right to feed, clothe and house himself & support his family. Period. End of story. Nobody is owed a fantastic house, great food and flashy clothes. If the mighty fall from their pedestals through their own fault, they don’t “deserve” being lifted back into a pace of honor.

That doesn’t mean he can’t be re-erected onto a pillar, just that he’s not owed that elevation back into society’s upper echelons..

 

[Hussar]

And, again, let's not forget here, there's nothing saying that adults can't simply turn the channel. The whole "who will think about the children" does ignore the fact that there are adults in the conversation who don't want to "forgive and forget". But, as I said earlier, it's a complicated issue that comes down to a lot of personal choices.

At the end of the day, one can only really talk about one's self and try to avoid broader claims about what other people should do. If I choose to boycott the Eagles over Michael Vick, that should be my choice. If I choose not to buy anything from Frog God Games because of the allegations surrounding Bill Webb, I should be free to do so. It is not my place to tell anyone else how to spend their money and it's no one's business but my own how I spend mine.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

While I certainly think they made the wrong call with that, I can at least understand how they came to it. You have to think, these are people that believe(d) passionately in MAR Barker's world of Tekumel. To have found out that he was a total Nazi would've likely shaken them to their core, would've done real damage to their psyches. Admitting that to the world then and there would've been hard.

Ultimately, when faced with a hard decision, they still made the wrong decision. These days, it might be easier, when faced with a real and horrid resurgence of all this, but ultimately when it mattered back then, they chose silence.

EDIT: It also just occurred to me, did the Tekumel Foundation address the fact that they sat on this info for years? I just saw the one statement that said "Yeah, we're not Nazis" but nothing about them sitting on this bomb since 2012.

I was talking with a friend of mine that these days, the rot of fascism/racism is everywhere. You could be talking about anything - The legacy of The Assassins Knot, why Bauhaus broke up the first time, Austin Osman Spare's techniques, or heck, which type of knitting needles are best, and then the next thing you know the person you've been talking to will start spouting horrible racist garbage.

Which is why that rot needs to be excised, given zero chance to root, wherever it is.

This is a bit misleading, imo. The vast majority of people into occultism and esotericism are not fascist in any way, or at least no more so than anyone else. It is just that there are certain types of occultism that fascists tend to be drawn to, and of course the well-known fascination of Hitler with the occult (and if Hitler had played with Legos, no one would be saying "Legos and fascism are adjacent").

And of course there is all sorts of misunderstanding of occult and esoteric doctrines, twisting them to fit fascist ideology.

And of course it should be mention that occultism and esotericism are huge fields, with an enormous range, to the point that connecting them to fascism is not unlike connecting philosophy or religion to fascism. It is just too broad, so that the connection is essentially meaningless.

 

[aramis erak]

Barker wasn't doing anything unlawful at the time. It was barely unethical; the pen name probably helped him dodge attacks by the political leftists so common on tenure and retention committees from the late 50's on....

 

[Umbran]

Barker wasn't doing anything unlawful at the time. It was barely unethical; the pen name probably helped him dodge attacks by the political leftists so common on tenure and retention committees from the late 50's on....

Mod Note:
Where to begin?

You blame political leftists? Okay, technically, breaking the no politics rule.

But... you are making excuses for the behavior of a Nazi propagandist?!?

You are done in this discussion.