D&D 5E D&D Beyond Will Delist Two Books On May 17th

D&D Beyond will be permanently removing Volo’s Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes on May 17th in favor of the upcoming Monsters of the Multiverse book, which largely compiles and updates that material. As per the D&D Beyond FAQ for Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse: Can I still buy Volo’s Guide to Monsters or Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes on D&D Beyond...

D&D Beyond will be permanently removing Volo’s Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes on May 17th in favor of the upcoming Monsters of the Multiverse book, which largely compiles and updates that material.

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As per the D&D Beyond FAQ for Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse:

Can I still buy Volo’s Guide to Monsters or Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes on D&D Beyond?
Starting on May 16, you can acquire the streamlined and up-to-date creatures and character race options, as well as a plethora of exciting new content, by purchasing Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse. On May 17, Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes will be discontinued from our digital marketplace.

If you already own these two books you will still have access to your purchases and any characters or encounters you built with them. They won’t be removed from your purchased sourcebooks. Therefore, if you want the "fluff" and tables in those two tomes in D&D Beyond, you need to purchase them soon.

This is the first time books have been wholesale delisted from the D&D Beyond Platform rather than updated (much like physical book reprints are with errata and changes).

There’s no word from WotC on whether physical books will be discontinued and be allowed to sell out.
 

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They can be, without issue.
again... when a rogue has Aim, and another rogue doesn't have AIm...

look we already have issues on this board of people not knowing... sooner or later we will have short hand for new book or old book and it wont be just on enworld... and we will run games at cons and use short hand. 5.5 6e anniversary edition and we will have edition breaks if you like it or not.
 

Mercurius

Legend
Issues around "compatibility" and "canon" seem to apply only to people in one or both of two groups:

1) People who play in public games.
2) People who play the rules-as-written.

I've never been in either group, so such changes don't matter to me personally, although I can see how people in either group would be particularly irked--or at least inconvenienced by changing things up. At the same time, an actual edition shift every 10 years--and micro-changes along the way--isn't all that big of a deal, especially when compared to the history of D&D. Even if the 50th anniversary is an actual new edition, or even "5.5," having to buy new books after 10 years shouldn't instigate armageddon.

I suppose I fall into a third group:

3) People who prefer when WotC publishes stuff they're into and/or can use in their home game.

So on one hand, I can say that I could be disgruntled by the fact that WotC is veering in a general away from a game that I'm excited about, but combining two facts--I don't have an active game right now and there's lots of other RPG material I'm interested in--this is not a serious issue. If and when I do start a D&D game again, it might become an issue, although even so, there's still tons of past material to use, and I always have the limitless power of my own imagination to draw from. That said, I do prefer that WotC publishes books that I can't resist picking up to browse and gather dust on the shelf, but on the other hand, as someone approaching half a century, I don't expect them to have me front and center in their publication plans.

As far as the specific orc content goes, it seems that people fall into one of two camps, though it is really a spectrum: Those that see the removed material as problematic and thus applaud its removal, and those who don't and thus don't want it removed (and all those in-between that see it as some variation - anything from "a wee bit problematic, but not a big deal" to "not problematic, but change is good", etc etc).

Either way, I do hope that WotC emphasizes the non-moralistic element of such changes, that this isn't about pushing a particular ideology of how everyone must relate fantasy and reality, but more about broadening the scope of (for example) orcs to reflect a wider range of options, which in turn reflects the last 40+ years of different stories and games told about orcs. Meaning, we don't have to get into the endless debate about whether or not orcs represent a real world people, and thus whether or not their past depiction was problematic (let alone to what degree, and which depictions, etc), but simply the basic fact that we've had decades of orcs that have been depicted in a variety of ways, and many people approaching the game now like flavors other than Tolkien or Gygax. But part of this might also require saying, "If you want Tolkienian or Gygaxian orcs, that's fine too, because this is a game of fun and imagination, not a curriculum on real world ideology."

Similarly with Asian/Oriental Adventures. The emphasis can be less on, "If you want to play mid-20th century Westernized media depictions of Far Eastern cultures, you'er a bad person," and more on something like: "the West is less insular now than it was 40 years ago, and there's just more intermixing of different cultures, so we can now depict a wider and more accurate view of non-Western cultures."

Which brings me back, again, to a place that I wish more took for granted: D&D is a game that you can customize to your own liking. Orcs can be brutish half-men if you want them to be, or they can be as diverse and sophisticated as human beings. It is really up to you. One way WotC can model this is by using the settings to explore different variations on the theme. This would mean that each setting doesn't have to include everything from the core rulebooks, and can vary quite a bit.

That said, I am skeptical of whether WotC would take this creative approach, as they seem to veer more towards making every world stick relatively close to the core rules. This is not to say that they'll include starwhispershadow elves in a hypothetical Dark Sun setting, but that they might not go all the way in on the possibility that the core sub-races simply don't exist on Athas, that Athasian elves are their own thing - which, again, would be the creatively optimal approach (imo).

SImilarly with racial ability adjustments. They can market it as, "this is a way to make the game more customizable" rather than "this is a way to make it clear that a halfling can be as strong as a goliath, and if you think otherwise you're x-ist."

Not everyone agrees on what is or is not "problematic" or "x-ist." These are ongoing conversations, and socio-cultural norms are ever-shifting; what seems progressive or edgy today, might look backwards and outdated in five years. WotC could relatively easily work around this by emphasizing the actual in-game elements, such as making the game more customizable, but also not being afraid of providing contextual examples (e.g. Dark Sun elves that really fit the milieu, or "the orcs of Greyhawk tend to be...") that differ from the core rules. The game would only be richer for it, imo - and it strikes the best of both possible worlds: it disentangles the core rules from narrow stereotypes that some find objectionable, but also broadens and diversifies the game and, most importantly, still is a game to which everyone is invited to play.
 
Last edited:

pukunui

Legend
Sorry if this has already been covered in the 10 pages of comments ... I get that WotC wishes Volo's didn't exist due to various bits of lore they no longer like, but why throw out Mordy's as well? Is there problematic lore in that book as well, or is it purely that they don't want to confuse people with two different versions of the same race/statblock?
 

Issues around "compatibility" and "canon" seem to apply only to people in one or both of two groups:

1) People who play in public games.
2) People who play the rules-as-written.
I don't play very raw... I DO sometimes (not lately) play/run public though...but I have no issue house urleing... I just want to NOT HAVE TO.
3) People who prefer when WotC publishes stuff they're into and/or can use in their home game.
yes and this is why I pushfor a WotC fighter upgrade or at least a martial complex character.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Issues around "compatibility" and "canon" seem to apply only to people in one or both of two groups:

1) People who play in public games.
2) People who play the rules-as-written.

I've never been in either group, so such changes don't matter to me personally, although I can see how people in either group would be particularly irked--or at least inconvenienced by changing things up. At the same time, an actual edition shift every 10 years--and micro-changes along the way--isn't all that big of a deal, especially when compared to the history of D&D. Even if the 50th anniversary is an actual new edition, or even "5.5," having to buy new books after 10 years shouldn't instigate armageddon.

I suppose I fall into a third group:

3) People who prefer when WotC publishes stuff they're into and/or can use in their home game.

So on one hand, I can say that I could be disgruntled by the fact that WotC is veering in a general away from a game that I'm excited about, but combining two facts--I don't have an active game right now and there's lots of other RPG material I'm interested in--this is not a serious issue. If and when I do start a D&D game again, it might become an issue, although even so, there's still tons of past material to use, and I always have the limitless power of my own imagination to draw from. But even so, I do prefer that WotC publishes books that I can't resist picking up to browse and gather dust on the shelf, but on the other hand, as someone approaching half a century, I don't expect them to have me front and center in their publication plans.

As far as the specific orc content goes, it seems that people fall into one of two camps, though it is really a spectrum: Those that see the removed material as problematic and thus applaud its removal, those who don't and thus don't like it removed (and all those in-between that see it as some variation - anything from "a wee bit problematic, but not a big deal" to "not problematic, but change is good", etc etc).

Either way, I do hope that WotC emphasizes the non-moralistic element of such changes, that this isn't about pushing a particular ideology of how everyone must relate fantasy and reality, but more about broadening the scope of (for example) orcs to reflect a wider range of options, which in turn reflects the last 40+ years of different stories and games told about orcs. Meaning, we don't have to get into the endless debate about whether or not orcs represent a real world people, and thus whether or not their past depiction was problematic (let alone to what degree, and which depictions, etc), but simply the basic fact that we've had decades of orcs that have been depicted in a variety of ways, and many people approaching the game now like flavors other than Tolkien or Gygax. But part of this might also require saying, "If you want Tolkienian or Gygaxian orcs, that's fine too, because this is a game of fun and imagination, not a curriculum on real world ideology."

Similarly with Asian/Oriental Adventures. The emphasis can be less on, "If you want to play mid-20th century Westernized media depictions of Far Eastern cultures, you'er a bad person," and more on something like: "the West is less insular now than it was 40 years ago, and there's just more intermixing of different cultures, so we can now depict a wider and more accurate view of non-Western cultures."

Which brings me back, again, to a place that I wish more took for granted: D&D is a game that you can customize to your own liking. Orcs can be brutish half-men if you want them to be, or they can be as diverse and sophisticated as human beings. It is really up to you. One way WotC can model this is by using the settings to explore different variations on the theme. This would mean that each setting doesn't have to include everything from the core rulebooks, and can vary quite a bit.

That said, I am skeptical of whether WotC would take this creative approach, as they seem to veer more towards making every world stick relatively close to the core rules. This is not to say that they'll include starwhispershadow elves in a hypothetical Dark Sun setting, but that they might not go all the way in on the possibility that the core sub-races simply don't exist on Athas, that Athasian elves are their own thing - which, again, would be the creatively optimal approach (imo).

SImilarly with racial ability adjustments. They can market it as, "this is a way to make the game more customizable" rather than "this is a way to make it clear that a halfling can be as strong as a goliath, and if you think otherwise you're x-ist."

Not everyone agrees on what is or is not "problematic" or "x-ist." These are ongoing conversations, and socio-cultural norms are ever-shifting; what seems progressive or edgy today, might look backwards and outdated in five years. WotC could relatively easily work around this by emphasizing the actual in-game elements, such as making the game more customizable, but also not being afraid of providing contextual examples (e.g. Dark Sun elves that really fit the milieu, or "the orcs of Greyhawk tend to be...") that differ from the core rules. The game would only be richer for it, imo - and it strikes the best of both possible worlds: it disentangles the core rules from narrow stereotypes that some find objectionable, but also broadens and diversifies the game and, most importantly, still is a game to which everyone is invited to play.
Literally nothing in the world of D&D would make me happier than for what you suggest to be reality. But instead, it seems like you follow the latest group-think or you're an outdated x-ist, as you say. It's really quite upsetting.
 


Mercurius

Legend
I don't play very raw... I DO sometimes (not lately) play/run public though...but I have no issue house urleing... I just want to NOT HAVE TO.

yes and this is why I pushfor a WotC fighter upgrade or at least a martial complex character.
So my question for you is, if you have no issue house-ruling and really want a "martial complex character," why not just design one? I know you don't want to "have to" house-rule, but A) it is kind of fun, especially when inspired, and B) the simple fact is that if you have such a desire in the first place, it likely means that your understanding and interest in the game is far more granular than the average player - and thus there are always going to be things you come up with that the rules don't account for or do differently than you'd like.

Actually, this seems to be part of WotC's recent ethos, and something that has changed from TSR era or even 3.X: the game is published for a wider demographic, and one that is generally more casual than the typical D&D player 20 or 30 years ago.

How do I come to this conclusion? A couple of reasons, and mostly just conjecture on my part. One is simple numbers: maybe five or six times more people are playing D&D now, and presumably a large percentage of them are pretty casual. That's part of how D&D has changed, I think: even just 10 years ago, a larger percentage of D&D players were serious about it - it was a relatively diehard cohort that had moved from edition to edition. Players were added, and some went away - but the base was pretty experienced.

I have no idea what the actual number is, but I'm guessing that half or more of current D&D players started within the last five years. D&D seemed to really take off sometime in the 2017-19 range, and is now several times the size it was at the start of 5E; the last estimate I read was 25 million a couple years ago, so maybe 30 million today? If we go back to Dancey's estimates from 20-25 years ago, that's, what, 8-10x as many players?

So my point is--and forgive me diverging a bit--is that you probably aren't their main target audience any more--not just because of age (I have no idea how old you are), but because you are (presumably) a serious, long-term player, and think up things like a "complex martial character." I just don't know if WotC wants to do what they did in 3.5 or 2E, when they were making games largely for serious gamers. I mean, some of that would be nice, but the bulk of their product is going to be for those who play D&D more casually, which means are generally happy with the rules as written.
 

Jaeger

That someone better
D&D Beyond will be permanently removing Volo’s Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes on May 17th in favor of the upcoming Monsters of the Multiverse book, which largely couples and updates that material.

Shocked! ...Shocked I say!


So how long before the line about backward comparability falls away?

Never.

The 50th 5eAE is Not. A. New. Edition.

Therefore anything that they do is inherently compatible with what came before because, it is just a evolved not-edition of the same game.

Get it? ;)
 

Retreater

Legend
Here's another way of looking at it. 5e has seen the largest growth of any edition of the game. For many of those players, the books, characters, and campaigns they've got already will be fine - and they won't have a reason to go get the newest edition of the game. For many of them, 5e is the only edition of the game they've ever played. Most of the people who will care are fans (like us) who debate this stuff and who spend hours trying to glean what words might be refracted in a gem on a teaser Tweet to get an insight into a forthcoming book.
I don't think the new crowd of 5e players are "like us." I'm not trying to gate-keep or anything. I'm just saying that based on the ones I've met, played with, and run games for, they could care less if it's 5e, 5.12e, 5.2795e, etc.
They probably won't even notice anything has changed.
 

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