D&D 5E Is Tasha's More or Less The Universal Standard?

[Maxperson]

Tell that to a Wizard or an Artificer. Or someone making a save against a 20 Int Wizard's Spell. Or someone trying to resolve a Skill check related to the 5 Intelligence Skills that are often significant.

Dex skills are just as significant and int for the wizard/artificer is not going to be as generally useful as dex. No matter how you slice it, there are going to be far, far, far, FAR more dex saves required over the course of a campaign that int saves, so even if you can get into up to dex in all the other areas(it fails badly for AC), then int still loses based on saves alone. Dex is the better.

And again, I trust Crawford's handle on the game rules more than most peoples. He has been in hip deep with the mathematical apparatus WotC has, that they don’t share (though Mearls got pretty loose goosey about that in his Happy Fun Hour), for years of in depth playtesting.

I don't. Wizards has mislead us more than once over the years. I'm not taking his word on something that is very clearly wrong.

 

[Parmandur]

Dex skills are just as significant and int for the wizard/artificer is not going to be as generally useful as dex. No matter how you slice it, there are going to be far, far, far, FAR more dex saves required over the course of a campaign that int saves, so even if you can get into up to dex in all the other areas(it fails badly for AC), then int still loses based on saves alone. Dex is the better.

I don't. Wizards has mislead us more than once over the years. I'm not taking his word on something that is very clearly wrong.

Quantity is not the only measure of value. Lots of little saves and uses is good, but I'm not seeing any objective reason to doubt the statements of the designers here. Particularly as they seem even more confident of their math in 2020 when they published Tasha's than when I first heard them say it. That suggests that their models have held up in their extensive playtesting. And folks, WotC does a lot of playtesting, all the time.

 

[James Gasik]

It's pretty easy to prove, if you have the time. Look up how many times the rules call for a Strength save. Or a Charisma save. Then compare that to how often you're asked to make a Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom saving throw.

Sure, there's outliers when a character can force a saving throw against an ability that's less often used, but that's exactly what it is, an outlier- the game doesn't ask for all saves equally.

 

[ECMO3]

Only with a small handful of subclasses (the main ones being the heavily armoured clerics and even there it's not the 16 they want so much as the STR 15 for the armour).

I disagree. Youn can get a full point of AC on Monks, Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Rogues and Druids in addition to better saves for the most important save in the game. You can get 2 points better on AC on a half-elf Barbarian!

Your claim is this is important because of save DC well with two 16s you have a higher save DC for Rangers, Paladins, Monks, Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, Psi Warriors and Rune Knights. Aside from DC, for A Fey Wanderer Ranger you get a full 3 point boost to all your charisma skills with a 16, with a Gloomstalker you get a higher initiative, with a Paladin you get a bonus to all your saves and those of allies nearby.

This is before you even consider multiclasses and yes, if I am building a Rogue-Wizard or a Fighter-Wizard or a Paladin-Sorcerer or a Wizard-Warlock .... I want a 16 in two different stats at start.

As far as heavily armored clerics, I am playing a heavily armored custom lineage Tempest cleric and I want a 16 strength (not 15) because my weapon attacks and attack cantrip (booming blade) hits more, does more damage and it makes my athletics score is higher (and she uses athletics several times a day).

 

[James Gasik]

It's pretty easy to prove, if you have the time. Look up how many times the rules call for a Strength save. Or a Charisma save. Then compare that to how often you're asked to make a Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom saving throw.

Sure, there's outliers when a character can force a saving throw against an ability that's less often used, but that's exactly what it is, an outlier- the game doesn't ask for all saves equally.

For example, someone did an analysis of the Monster Manual here on these forums: D&D 5E - On Saving Throws (a Monster Manual Analysis)

 

[Parmandur]

It's pretty easy to prove, if you have the time. Look up how many times the rules call for a Strength save. Or a Charisma save. Then compare that to how often you're asked to make a Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom saving throw.

Sure, there's outliers when a character can force a saving throw against an ability that's less often used, but that's exactly what it is, an outlier- the game doesn't ask for all saves equally.

If a PC is a Wizard or Artificer, Intelligence comes up all the time, and for enemies too.

By "math," I didn't mean "counting." I meant a rigorous statistical analysis.

 

[Maxperson]

It's pretty easy to prove, if you have the time. Look up how many times the rules call for a Strength save. Or a Charisma save. Then compare that to how often you're asked to make a Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom saving throw.

Sure, there's outliers when a character can force a saving throw against an ability that's less often used, but that's exactly what it is, an outlier- the game doesn't ask for all saves equally.

Yeah. This isn't in doubt. If the designers are claiming all bonuses are equal, then they are either wrong or lying to us, and I really doubt that they don't know. More likely they don't want to call out certain stats as better for fear of influencing players to go into those stats at the expense of character.

 

[Irlo]

Dex skills are just as significant and int for the wizard/artificer is not going to be as generally useful as dex. No matter how you slice it, there are going to be far, far, far, FAR more dex saves required over the course of a campaign that int saves, so even if you can get into up to dex in all the other areas(it fails badly for AC), then int still loses based on saves alone. Dex is the better.

That doesn't mean though that it's always best to max out Dexterity at the expense of Intelligence. It can be more valuable to have moderately high scores in both than it is to dump one and boost the other.

 

[James Gasik]

The important thing with saves, of course, isn't just your ability score modifier, but proficiency. Since you will eventually get +6 to saves from proficiency, but likely only +5 from a 20 ability score.

Where this really becomes problematic is in high tier play, when it's possible to encounter save DC's higher than your character can hit on a natural 20 (for non-proficient saves).

I had something like this happen to me in Storm King's Thunder when we had to face a very powerful blue dragon, and it's fear save DC was something like 19. Even with advantage as a halfling, I had to roll an 18 on the die to save. It didn't happen.

You can guess who took Resilient (Wis) at their next opportunity. But since most character classes only get 2 good saves and you can only take Resilient once (IF Feats are allowed in your game), you're going to have 3 bad saves. And so it becomes important to consider what those are going to be, and how often they will come up.

Unless you're a Monk or a Paladin, of course.

 

[Parmandur]

For example, someone did an analysis of the Monster Manual here on these forums: D&D 5E - On Saving Throws (a Monster Manual Analysis)

Yeah. This isn't in doubt. If the designers are claiming all bonuses are equal, then they are either wrong or lying to us, and I really doubt that they don't know. More likely they don't want to call out certain stats as better for fear of influencing players to go into those stats at the expense of character.

OK, this is actually a really good example of Crawford's point about the difference between which Attribute gets an ASI on Race is about flavor not balance: which Save a Monster targets is about flavor more than "objective value." Mindflayers target Intelligence because, well...they flay minds, it's their deal. A lot of things target Dexteriry because that's what fits flavorwise. In a campaign where I pit in all Mindflayers, all the time, Intelligence is suddenly very important. Because Dexterity is only superior subjectively.