The many types of Sandboxes and Open-World Campaigns

[Thomas Shey]

XP for actually doing things drives sandbox players. Milestone XP sets up required activities.

Not if the milestone is simply play-time. The only activity that "requires" is showing up.

 

[Reynard]

Not if the milestone is simply play-time. The only activity that "requires" is showing up.

But even then you aren't motivating interaction with the sandbox.

I'm not necessarily advocating for any particular source of XP -- fights, treasure, quest completion -- because the things you reward are going to depend on the things you want the game to be about. And I don't even inherently dislike milestone XP. I just don't think milestone XP works for sandbox games.

 

[payn]

XP for actually doing things drives sandbox players. Milestone XP sets up required activities.

So, you are saying you have to either railroad the players, or lure them to do things with xp like James Woods with Resses's pieces?

 

[Malmuria]

So, you are saying you have to either railroad the players, or lure them to do things with xp like James Woods with Resses's pieces?

Well milestone XP is still a form of XP, i.e. rewarding players for a particular activity. It's just xp per goal piece is very concrete, whereas xp for "adventure" is much more vague. I think milestones could still work, but most effective if the xp award is attached to something clear and realizable from the outset. Even better if these are variable to provide risk/reward options for players.

 

[payn]

Well milestone XP is still a form of XP, i.e. rewarding players for a particular activity. It's just xp per goal piece is very concrete, whereas xp for "adventure" is much more vague. I think milestones could still work, but most effective if the xp award is attached to something clear and realizable from the outset. Even better if these are variable to provide risk/reward options for players.

Thats always been my issue with XP though. Earning is too meta, players go after the biggest prizes and often leave many activities behind. I guess I am blessed that my players are very proactive about adventuring and playing the game needs no lure. YMMV

 

[Malmuria]

Thats always been my issue with XP though. Earning is too meta, players go after the biggest prizes and often leave many activities behind. I guess I am blessed that my players are very proactive about adventuring and playing the game needs no lure. YMMV

Justin Alexander talks about this in terms of the "default" action of various kinds of games. XP can be a good way of communicating the basic game structure to players--basically, when in doubt, do x. There is a meta-level there in that it sort of expresses what the game and the characters are 'about,' but as long as you are doing some kind of xp and levels-progression that's always there. Now, I don't think that XP is the only determining motivation for players, and some players might not even care. For example, if you are running a mystery-type scenario, getting clues and figuring out information might be its own reward.

I think the standard trad dnd structure is mystery/investigation that results in dungeon crawl, on repeat. But that can fail at many points, because the players know they are supposed to be searching for clues, but they either don't know where to search or can't put together the clues they do have, and the DM often thinks they have provided all the information the players need. So it's good to have an action that the players can always default to if they get stuck (and fwiw, I think "get treasure" is less disruptive than "kill stuff")

Game Structures – Part 3: Dungeoncrawl

Go to Part 1The most successful scenario structure in the history of roleplaying games is the traditional dungeoncrawl. In fact, I believe that much of D&D’s success rests on the strength of t

thealexandrian.net

 

[Thomas Shey]

But even then you aren't motivating interaction with the sandbox.

I'll be pretty blunt; if the only thing that's encouraging people to interacting with the game is the advancement mechanics, they don't want to really be in that game; it may reinforce that kind of play-arc, but if they won't engage with that play arc without it, you're kidding yourself that's the kind of game they want.

I'm not necessarily advocating for any particular source of XP -- fights, treasure, quest completion -- because the things you reward are going to depend on the things you want the game to be about. And I don't even inherently dislike milestone XP. I just don't think milestone XP works for sandbox games.

I think anything milestone XP won't work for is an acknowledgement that people really aren't there to play the kind of game the GM thinks they are.

 

[Reynard]

I'll be pretty blunt; if the only thing that's encouraging people to interacting with the game is the advancement mechanics, they don't want to really be in that game; it may reinforce that kind of play-arc, but if they won't engage with that play arc without it, you're kidding yourself that's the kind of game they want.



I think anything milestone XP won't work for is an acknowledgement that people really aren't there to play the kind of game the GM thinks they are.

Your response suggests you don't need any form of reward or advancement at all. Which is fair. Some people probably play that why, and I would LOVE to run a game without advancement -- or, at least, the very limited kind of advancement you see in episodic television and comic books. But I have run games for literally hundreds of players in total over many decades and I have never, ever encountered players that in a long term game don't want some form of advancement.

 

[Reynard]

Thats always been my issue with XP though. Earning is too meta, players go after the biggest prizes and often leave many activities behind. I guess I am blessed that my players are very proactive about adventuring and playing the game needs no lure. YMMV

I don't mind meta. In my experience there are moments of deep immersion in TTRPGs -- I have had players make me cry as GM -- but those moments exist inside an activity that is very much a game. And as a game, meta elements like XP and character sheets are important.

 

[payn]

Justin Alexander talks about this in terms of the "default" action of various kinds of games. XP can be a good way of communicating the basic game structure to players--basically, when in doubt, do x. There is a meta-level there in that it sort of expresses what the game and the characters are 'about,' but as long as you are doing some kind of xp and levels-progression that's always there. Now, I don't think that XP is the only determining motivation for players, and some players might not even care. For example, if you are running a mystery-type scenario, getting clues and figuring out information might be its own reward.

I think the standard trad dnd structure is mystery/investigation that results in dungeon crawl, on repeat. But that can fail at many points, because the players know they are supposed to be searching for clues, but they either don't know where to search or can't put together the clues they do have, and the DM often thinks they have provided all the information the players need. So it's good to have an action that the players can always default to if they get stuck (and fwiw, I think "get treasure" is less disruptive than "kill stuff")

Game Structures – Part 3: Dungeoncrawl

Go to Part 1The most successful scenario structure in the history of roleplaying games is the traditional dungeoncrawl. In fact, I believe that much of D&D’s success rests on the strength of t

thealexandrian.net

Basic structure like using their skills and abilities in the three pillars of social, exploration, and combat? I assumed that was all self explanatory. I am talking beyond just the typical D&D trad play and encompassing RPGs in general. I dont give out XP because I dont want to tell the players what to do. I want them to decide as the characters what they want to do. Now, I do often have campaign guides that explain the setting and points of interest to give them viable starting points. I think large all encompassing campaign end goals are important too. The players than explore the world and aim for those goals via the characters. Pursuing those goals in any way they see fit motivates them to action.

I don't mind meta. In my experience there are moments of deep immersion in TTRPGs -- I have had players make me cry as GM -- but those moments exist inside an activity that is very much a game. And as a game, meta elements like XP and character sheets are important.

XP was too distracting and immersion breaking to keep around. My gaming has only gotten better with it gone. Though, I see how its as important as dice to some folks.