D&D General IS the 5 min work day a feature or a bug?

[Minigiant]

But your Wizard WILL likely suicide rush for a rare spellbook, or a serious amount of gold (to get cool stuff) or any number of other rewards.

I've found players might or might not invest in the worldbuilding, heavily depends on the player.

Almost ALL will, however, invest in their CHARACTER. Give the character cool stuff, or the opportunity to get cool stuff? They'll invest in your world just fine. And that generally includes being less risk averse (to get cool stuff).

True, but you still need an incentive to rush.

The DM has to give a reason not to use hit and run or siege tactics.

 

[Seramus]

True, but you still need an incentive to rush.

The DM has to give a reason not to use hit and run or siege tactics.

I've found the biggest incentive to rush is actual playtime. You've only got a couple hours, and you could spend huge chunks of the session doing recon, planning, and executing brutal hit and run... But now you've only got 2 hours left to play!

My players love recon, planning, etc. But they also learned to police their own time because there's not enough of it.

 

[Helldritch]

The 5mwd simply breaks the narrative and the believability of the world.

"The fight was a hard one, the bugbears guarding the secret access were really though but we prevailed.

- Yes but I used a bit more spells than anticipated. Shall we take time to restore my arcane energy?

The priest looks the wizard square in the eyes.
- We're those two lightning truly necessary?

Atkins the rogue just cut the conversation short.
- Who cares? The evil warlord will have to wait for us. Time to rest."

This looks silly and unlogical. But this is what thw 5 mwd implies most of the time.

 

[Minigiant]

The 5mwd simply breaks the narrative and the believability of the world.

"The fight was a hard one, the bugbears guarding the secret access were really though but we prevailed.

- Yes but I used a bit more spells than anticipated. Shall we take time to restore my arcane energy?

The priest looks the wizard square in the eyes.
- We're those two lightning truly necessary?

Atkins the rogue just cut the conversation short.
- Who cares? The evil warlord will have to wait for us. Time to rest."

This looks silly and unlogical. But this is what thw 5 mwd implies most of the time.

But if the wizard used up their lightnings, why would they continue?

Then that becomes like a said,a comparison of information and expectations.

Continue
Pro: Maintain The Element of Surprise
Pro: Guards not at high alert
Con: The Wizard is down 2 lighting bolts
Con: Party is not at full HP

Come back tomorrow
Pro: Wizard has 2 more spells
Pro: Fort is down X bugbears
Con: Guards at high alert
Con: Can't use Secret Entrance

 

[DND_Reborn]

the funny part is in my OP I said "Yes a DM can work around it, but that isn't what I want to talk about"

Sorry, I am confused then, exactly what do you want to talk about then???

The benefits of the 5MWD?
The drawbacks of it?
How to make it happen?
How to stop it?
Other ways it can mess up a game?
Or what...?

 

[Oofta]

I see no reason why every adventure should have a time clock... and as a player after a few sessions of it I would ask the DM to not throw so many time sensitive quests... and if it kept happening I woul most likly get board and leave.

I try to have 2-3 'dresden files' level of bad days (set of days... most of those boooks are like a long weekend) per campaign, but spread out with dozens of adventures that aren't that bad.

okay... so what happens if your PCs just let the enemies get what they want? or if they change sides and say "Hey if I help you get X can you help me get Y next?"

Then they fail their goals, the bad guys win and bad things happen. Or they miss their boat, they're stuck on the island of doom, rocks fall, everyone dies*.

It's not like everything is a desperate scramble and it can vary. Sometimes they're just somewhere that a long rest isn't practical. Sometimes the witnesses will "disappear". Sometimes it's just bad things happen in threes with little or no connection. Things can happen over a couple of days or a week or more.

Asking why they don't just let things happen is kind of like asking how to motivate the PCs and that's a whole separate topic.

*Okay, not everyone. If it's really bad, the bard lives.

 

[CreamCloud0]

again that isn't my experence at all normally the 5mwd involves usieng tactics and some of those resourses to get the safe rest... the fact that sometimes it doesn't work out doesn't really change much...

you seem to think they ask the DM "Please can we rest even though we did nothing to make it possible" and again that isn't my experience, they plane shift or teleport or extra dimensional space a safe spot...

the idea isn't 'the bandits wont do there best to shore up there defenses... the idea is you are costing the bandits more then they can replenish.

if either happens they just move on to the next quest or hook... I am not seeing the issue.

sure he is going to prep... but he is loseing allies and traps each day. the idea is you are weakeneing him not strengthinging him

The idea is that the enemies notice you’re coming in every day or 12 hours or however long it is and react, they don’t just sit there sending out a new patrol business as usual when their last 4 didn’t return and let their number dwindle, they notice, they react, sending scouts to find your camp, setting up traps, preparing, and when the group comes in like they did day after day there isn’t just a single standard patrol, there’s a whole ambush ready and waiting to drop on them like a ton of bricks, or alternatively they all fled in the night taking the objective with them, all your efforts chip, chip, chipping away at their number has been rendered moot and the next time you fight them they’re going to know it’s coming, they’ll know what the group can do and they’ll of replaced all the grunts you killed, potentially with something even stronger than what they had before.
A realistic reactionary world should not let the 5MWD be in the players favour in these cases
EDIT: ‘well at least there’s four less guards than there was last time’ should not be a worthwhile platitude when the remaining 26 are all now properly armed and armoured, on high alert, with double sized patrols and have prepared traps and defences.
EDIT EDIT: that wizard who’s tower you’re assaulting? They’re getting their spell slots back every time you rest too, and can be summoning new minions every day, buffing the ones they have, weaving enchantments into their sanctum, creating magic items, scrolls and potions or messing with the players from a distance.

 

[Helldritch]

But if the wizard used up their lightnings, why would they continue?

Then that becomes like a said,a comparison of information and expectations.

Continue
Pro: Maintain The Element of Surprise
Pro: Guards not at high alert
Con: The Wizard is down 2 lighting bolts
Con: Party is not at full HP

Come back tomorrow
Pro: Wizard has 2 more spells
Pro: Fort is down X bugbears
Con: Guards at high alert
Con: Can't use Secret Entrance

Come back.
Pro:" The party will be at full"
Con:" The party lost the element of surprise. The warlord will send seek and destroy parties. The players will be found and they will be attacked in the early hours of the morning with a dispel magic on the tiny hut (if they made one). They will be attacked by the entire compound and the warlord and his close guards will simply watch the show. The group will definitely TPK and after that, I Will, show them the notes about the adventure and how and why they TPKed so drastically. Most players will agree that it was not that good of an idea."

And this is without me doing the rules I use to enforce 6-8 encounters per day.

Pressing on.
Con:" The party is motivated at full strength. A bit weaker, yes, but that is but one encounter."
Con:" The party misses some key spells. Pressing on will only further their problems and they might be forced to take extra precautions."

Con:" In such a weakened state, the party might miss a key attack and a fleeing foe might ring the alarm."

Pro:" The alarm is not set. Most enemies are not aware of an intrusion and might be unarmored. "

Pro:" Since the secret entrance was so well garded. It might be safe to assume that security is high on entrance but low once inside. Fights will probably be easier and if attrition is a thing for the players, so is it for their foes. Picking them in small groups will make it easier for the PCs. Pressing on, will help validate the theory and if the theory proves to be correct, pressing on is the way to go."

Pro:" Pressing on might also mean that key opponents might be caught alone and without help if the guards have been eliminated along the way. Slowly reducing the number of opponents will allow for easier fights. Fighting the whole keep/compound at the same time is a sure way to die."

And if at some point, the alarm is set, depending on the amount of enemies the players have eliminated will work on their favor. If enough, the warlord might decide to flee. If they bravely made a dent because they were unlucky, they will face pursuit but it might be on their own terms. At this point anything can go. But one fight and off? This is a sure way to get a seek and destroy party going against the players and the fight will not be on their own terms.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sorry, I am confused then, exactly what do you want to talk about then???

The benefits of the 5MWD?
The drawbacks of it?
How to make it happen?
How to stop it?
Other ways it can mess up a game?
Or what...?

weather it is a design feature that people want or a bug that needs to be eleminated...

 

[Mort]

weather it is a design feature that people want or a bug that needs to be eleminated...

The 5 minute workday is a consequence of d&d class design.

As such it is a feature AND a bug; which one depends on the group and their playstyle.

Since it's not hard to correct for when it's a bug IMO it's fine keeping it as a feature.