D&D General IS the 5 min work day a feature or a bug?

[Oofta]

I really don't understand why people assume that the world is static...

okay and none of that changes the 5mwd... unless that McGuffin is all or nothing game breaking....

I've never had an issue creating reasonable time clocks if you need a week to recover. I try to do pacing similar to books like The Dresden Files. Everything is going fine and then it all goes to heck in a handbrake for a few days.

There are so many ways to accomplish this, usually it's as simple as your enemies continuing to pursue their goals without waiting until it's convenient for the PCs.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Since this was written while I was composing my last post, I will just say this:

You would never experience a 5MWD in my game unless as the DM I wanted you to. If the DM wants to allow the players to set the pace, that is on the DM. The PCs will never have the power needed to match what the DM has at his/her disposal.

As some others on the board are fond of saying: the DM has infinite dragons.

I agree you have infinite dragons... but you can only use them to attack and kill the PCs... and then the game ends.

I can run 10 campaigns next year each getting to the pt were players try the 5mwd and then they die to escalation, but what has those 10 games really done?

my way of combating it is literally the reverse... they use the 5mwd and it works...and works and works until they get board. then they risk a little more each time until the game becomes fun again.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I've never had an issue creating reasonable time clocks if you need a week to recover.

I see no reason why every adventure should have a time clock... and as a player after a few sessions of it I would ask the DM to not throw so many time sensitive quests... and if it kept happening I woul most likly get board and leave.

I try to do pacing similar to books like The Dresden Files. Everything is going fine and then it all goes to heck in a handbrake for a few days.

I try to have 2-3 'dresden files' level of bad days (set of days... most of those boooks are like a long weekend) per campaign, but spread out with dozens of adventures that aren't that bad.

There are so many ways to accomplish this, usually it's as simple as your enemies continuing to pursue their goals without waiting until it's convenient for the PCs.

okay... so what happens if your PCs just let the enemies get what they want? or if they change sides and say "Hey if I help you get X can you help me get Y next?"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My simple answer to that is "No, I have never had a group express directly/indirectly the 5MWD is good or what they want," but that is because I've never even experienced it. PCs rest when they can/need to (time not being an issue), and if they need to rest they have to find a way to do it if resting isn't readily available. Often, they might want to rest but can't, because the world does move on without them.

okay. so you not only don't know anyone that wants it but you have never tried it on either side of the screen. that s cool. I am not a fan of it but i have seen it happen before (mostly in mid to high level 3.5, but a bit in epic 4 and a handful of times in 5th).

Personally, I am sorry if you have experienced that. IMO that is because the "weaker/ useless" options aren't tailored to the style of game the DM runs. You do see this in a lot of table which focus heavily on combat, for instance.

i mean it isn't just combat... even taking 'skill expertise arcana' or 'i can travel overland faster' or 'i can cast rituals cheaper/faster' abilities are all things that are outside of combat... but 'stop ageing and may live for ever' just will not come up at all.

My view is that no option should be essential to a character to play the game. If every great-weapon fighter feels the first feat they have to take is Great Weapon Master then there are issues with either the option design, DM/game style, or both. Of course not all options will ever be equal, but options should only serve to make the game easier--not survivable. That way if someone wants a sub-optimal option, it won't hurt their enjoyment of the game--and hopefully will even increase it!

Oh god I agree... the warlock that didn't take immortality right away also never took eldritch blast... I found other more flavorful ways to keep up. the difference is "I must have the best option" compared to "I don't want to waste an option on something that can't come up"

Otherwise, the thread has gone on to debating/discussing if or if not the 5MWD is bad (or good) and how to get rid of it if unwanted, or talk to your group in how to keep it exciting if they want to keep it. And frankly, I've already talked about that stuff enough.

the funny part is in my OP I said "Yes a DM can work around it, but that isn't what I want to talk about"

 

[Mort]

I see no reason why every adventure should have a time clock... and as a player after a few sessions of it I would ask the DM to not throw so many time sensitive quests... and if it kept happening I woul most likly get board and leave.

Not every session should have a time clock, but many, most should have some kind of time pressure - from minor on up. And some shouldn't variety is key.

I try to have 2-3 'dresden files' level of bad days (set of days... most of those boooks are like a long weekend) per campaign, but spread out with dozens of adventures that aren't that bad.

Sure, not everything is world alterering end of the universe stuff! Too much of that gets exhausting.

But again, time pressure doesn't have to be major. It can just be the PCs missing out on something they wanted.

okay... so what happens if your PCs just let the enemies get what they want? or if they change sides and say "Hey if I help you get X can you help me get Y next?"

Depends a lot on the campaign. The key is to have logical consequences that still lead to the players having fun

 

[Vaalingrade]

I feel like, as with a lot of these 'how do you fix' DMing questions people are approaching it from the wrong direction.

Punishing the players until the stop is... I'll just say I've never met a player who liked it so much as tolerated it. Players engage in the Five Minute Work Day for a reason. It's a choice they are making in how they approach the game. They aren't looking for the 'challenge' presented by the resource puzzle, so... why are we forcing them to keep participating in it?

If that's how the players want to play, why not talk to them and see what they'd like to see? Maybe the answer is to just let it happen. Maybe there's an approach they would rather see. The answer is likely not that they want monsters vomited at them until they get with the DM's program.

 

[Mort]

I feel like, as with a lot of these 'how do you fix' DMing questions people are approaching it from the wrong direction.

Punishing the players until the stop is... I'll just say I've never met a player who liked it so much as tolerated it. Players engage in the Five Minute Work Day for a reason. It's a choice they are making in how they approach the game. They aren't looking for the 'challenge' presented by the resource puzzle, so... why are we forcing them to keep participating in it?

If that's how the players want to play, why not talk to them and see what they'd like to see? Maybe the answer is to just let it happen. Maybe there's an approach they would rather see. The answer is likely not that they want monsters vomited at them until they get with the DM's program.

It's not about punishment, or at least it shouldn't be. I certainly agree that any DM who punishes his players until he gets what he wants is doing it 100% wrong - and hopefully will soon be left without a player base.

It's more about reward. Players like xp (or otherwise advancing levels) and most LOVE stuff.

If the players see that they can get more xp (or advance levels faster) and get more/better stuff by being less risk averse (which is all the 5 minutes workday really is) they'll likely do that.

And if they REALLY don't want to, well ok, they've made their preference known and the DM should accept it. But IME most players are too in love with levels and stuff to not adjust their habits to get more of both.

 

[Minigiant]

It's not about punishment, or at least it shouldn't be. I certainly agree that any DM who punishes his players until he gets what he wants is doing it 100% wrong - and hopefully will soon be left without a player base.

It's more about reward. Players like xp (or otherwise advancing levels) and most LOVE stuff.

If the players see that they can get more xp (or advance levels faster) and get more/better stuff by being less risk averse (which is all the 5 minutes workday really is) they'll likely do that.

And if they REALLY don't want to, well ok, they've made their preference known and the DM should accept it. But IME most players are too in love with levels and stuff to not adjust their habits to get more of both.

I think half the issue is, quite frankly, players not buying into the DM's story or worldbuilding.

The players who come to the table agreed to play the game. They however have the authority to play their characters.

5MWD is usually because the DM haven't given the Players or their PCs a story or world they care about enough to take risks for.

My 8 HP elf wizard isn't going to suicide rush through a dark cavern system for a nobleman's daughter he doesn't care about without a obvious and enticing reward. Time Crunch only works if my PC cares.

Otherwise the PCs might 5MWD just like old school parties used to 10-foot-pole jab and avoid all the fights 40 years ago.

 

[Mort]

My 8 HP elf wizard isn't going to suicide rush through a dark cavern system for a nobleman's daughter he doesn't care about without a obvious and enticing reward. Time Crunch only works if my PC cares.

But your Wizard WILL likely suicide rush for a rare spellbook, or a serious amount of gold (to get cool stuff) or any number of other rewards.

I've found players might or might not invest in the worldbuilding, heavily depends on the player.

Almost ALL will, however, invest in their CHARACTER. Give the character cool stuff, or the opportunity to get cool stuff? They'll invest in your world just fine. And that generally includes being less risk averse (to get cool stuff).

 

[Vaalingrade]

5MWD is usually because the DM haven't given the Players or their PCs a story or world they care about enough to take risks for.

Or it's because all the interesting stuff a character can do is gated behind spell slots or daily uses and once those are gone you're stuck with the boring parts if you're not a Warlock and thus designed right.