D&D General IS the 5 min work day a feature or a bug?

[Vaalingrade]

Technically not a bug as the unspoken reliance on resource mini-games is intended design.

But in the history of tabletop RPGs, a lot of intended design ends up being a huge mistake. A mistake we have to live with as the mini-game is one of those things that 'feels like D&D', whatever that means, and it's just going to stay there forever like a goiter.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

While it's always been an issue I think part of the 5MWD comes from video game logic. Many games are trigger based, until you trigger a response nothing will change. Occasionally you'll have the equivalent of a wandering monster, but typically the opponents are static unless engaged.

I really don't understand why people assume that the world is static...

In my games NPCs and monsters react. Take out that guard post? The enemy may not react right away but will realize at some point nobody's checked in. Alarms are raised, reinforcements are called. For that matter the enemy may simply pack up the McGuffin and leave.

okay and none of that changes the 5mwd... unless that McGuffin is all or nothing game breaking....

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And while you rested up the goblins promoted and "trained" 10 "young" goblins to active duty. Now there are more than when you came in last time.

They can do stuff while you're resting too!

if they had 10 more goblins ready within 8 hours why were they not being used even as trained 8 hours ago??

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Why are the goblins suicidal? Why the goblins keep sending up five people attack parties once it is evident that such gets slaughtered? If they're brave, the remaining goblins would attack all together (so 30 or so goblins) or if they think the PCs are just too tough to beat why would they wait to be slaughtered rather than flee with their treasure?

okay so the 30 remaining goblins attack and??? how does this change that it would have been 35 yesterday? and can they find the PCs? did the PCs set up traps and countermessures?

 

[Mort]

if they had 10 more goblins ready within 8 hours why were they not being used even as trained 8 hours ago??

The quote was in response to pulling back out of the dungeon THEN resting, then coming back. Over several days.

But too what the question, reserves are a thing - even for goblins.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

All of them. Just because they players want to rest doesn't mean they should or the story allows it.

and just becuse the DM doesn't want them too doesn't mean they can't pull it off with good team tactics.

In the dragon hunting example, the PCs return rested, sure, but now face a greater force than intended

then they just hit and run again. and again if they have too... making the encounters harder seems to me to just make it better to 5mwd...

infact I have found the reverse is how you stop it... if every encounter is a cake walk over and over again they get braver and push a little more.

I have no idea how you managed to keep the wizards apart,

cause we were 6 PCs and the enemy were all played by 1 DM... so we out numbered him 6 to 1 in real life.

but I see no reason why the DM couldn't have them organize better against the PCs.

he kept trying and we just addapted and had counter plans.

Honestly, from what you've described it just sounds like the DM allow the PCs to steamroll the wizards.

I;m not sure allowed is the right word... but we did..

Anyway, players learn they cannot set the pace of the game to suit themselves in all cases.

not in all cases, but when they are well played they can a lot.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The quote was in response to pulling back out of the dungeon THEN resting, then coming back. Over several days.

But too what the question, reserves are a thing - even for goblins.

nobody said several days... it could be pull out and rest for 8 hours... but even 48hours, if you can prep for combat in 48hrs you were already a combatant....

 

[DND_Reborn]

I feel like at times this thread has gotten a bit off-topic (just a bit...).

In the OP, the question was:

do you know any individuals that have told you directly or indirectly the 5 m work day is good or what they want?

My simple answer to that is "No, I have never had a group express directly/indirectly the 5MWD is good or what they want," but that is because I've never even experienced it. PCs rest when they can/need to (time not being an issue), and if they need to rest they have to find a way to do it if resting isn't readily available. Often, they might want to rest but can't, because the world does move on without them.

I'll not debate whether experiencing it, wanting it, or not is good or bad.

Now this is a separate issue:

I find I often feel 'forced' to take better (not always best) options over weaker or useless ones even if I WANT to take the weaker or useless ones.

Personally, I am sorry if you have experienced that. IMO that is because the "weaker/ useless" options aren't tailored to the style of game the DM runs. You do see this in a lot of table which focus heavily on combat, for instance.

My view is that no option should be essential to a character to play the game. If every great-weapon fighter feels the first feat they have to take is Great Weapon Master then there are issues with either the option design, DM/game style, or both. Of course not all options will ever be equal, but options should only serve to make the game easier--not survivable. That way if someone wants a sub-optimal option, it won't hurt their enjoyment of the game--and hopefully will even increase it!

Otherwise, the thread has gone on to debating/discussing if or if not the 5MWD is bad (or good) and how to get rid of it if unwanted, or talk to your group in how to keep it exciting if they want to keep it. And frankly, I've already talked about that stuff enough.

 

[Mort]

nobody said several days... it could be pull out and rest for 8 hours... but even 48hours, if you can prep for combat in 48hrs you were already a combatant....

They said pull back, regroup and come back - that's a variable time frame.

But again, reserves are a thing and goblins can find cannon fodder quick.

Not saying the PCs wouldn't wear them down, but it would take A LOT longer if they kept retreating all the time. And at some point, assuming they are able, the goblins might just take the fight to them. Just to change things up.

Or maybe, the group retreats to rest up and finds the goblins just gone. They've scattered, or moved FAR deeper or to a different set of tunnels entirely. Maybe they took whatever the PCs were looking for, with them. Or maybe the PCs have achieved victory by driving them off.

The point is, resting up MAY work, but it shouldn't ALWAYS be the best, a good, or even a possible option. That's really all it takes to not ALWAYS have the 5 minute workday.

 

[DND_Reborn]

and just becuse the DM doesn't want them too doesn't mean they can't pull it off with good team tactics.

then they just hit and run again. and again if they have too... making the encounters harder seems to me to just make it better to 5mwd...

infact I have found the reverse is how you stop it... if every encounter is a cake walk over and over again they get braver and push a little more.

cause we were 6 PCs and the enemy were all played by 1 DM... so we out numbered him 6 to 1 in real life.

he kept trying and we just addapted and had counter plans.

I;m not sure allowed is the right word... but we did..

not in all cases, but when they are well played they can a lot.

Since this was written while I was composing my last post, I will just say this:

You would never experience a 5MWD in my game unless as the DM I wanted you to. If the DM wants to allow the players to set the pace, that is on the DM. The PCs will never have the power needed to match what the DM has at his/her disposal.

As some others on the board are fond of saying: the DM has infinite dragons.