D&D General IS the 5 min work day a feature or a bug?

[Lanefan]

It's the difference between "attrition-based" and "attrition exists" Attrition-based gameplay limits storytelling options.

Honestly curious as to the bolded - how so? Can you explain what limits attrition-based play imposes?

 

[Lanefan]

At least the wizard always had darts to throw after they spent their 2 spells per day!

Until said wizard ran out of darts...

 

[Oofta]

Until said wizard ran out of darts...

Yeah, at that point they're almost as useful as bards!

 

[jmartkdr2]

Honestly curious as to the bolded - how so? Can you explain what limits attrition-based play imposes?

Mysteries, stories where every fight matters, city-based stories, stories about travel that aren't about danger but occasionally involve action.

Basically any story where combat is something that won't happen multiple times in a day doesn't work if combat is only interesting if attrition happens first. Or you have boring combat.

 

[Minigiant]

Honestly curious as to the bolded - how so? Can you explain what limits attrition-based play imposes?

Because it requires resources being spent it chunks.

The classic example is the ballroom/wedding/coronation attack.

One event where attackers attack in a single scene. Attrition based games usually are not designed to run situations where novaing and going home to sleep is 100% appropriate.

 

[Oofta]

Mysteries, stories where every fight matters, city-based stories, stories about travel that aren't about danger but occasionally involve action.

Basically any story where combat is something that won't happen multiple times in a day doesn't work if combat is only interesting if attrition happens first. Or you have boring combat.

Which is why I use the alternate rest rules. It typically takes a few days to solve the mystery with multiple encounters between.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Which is why I use the alternate rest rules. It typically takes a few days to solve the mystery with multiple encounters between.

It's not hard to solve, but the existence of a solution proves the existence of the problem in the first place.

Honestly I haven't really seen 5MWD in actual play - if there are multiple encounters in day often enough that players don't assume they can rest after every fight, they'll get into the habit of conserving resources.

BUT once the habit of 5MWD is set in, it can be very hard to dislodge it. Players who realize they're much more effective playing that way will want to play that way. And technically they're right: it is the most effective way to play, even if it doesn't make narrative sense and makes the game less fun.

 

[Helldritch]

The 5 mwd is easy to counter.
1) Assure the players that there will be 6 to 8 encounters per day.
2) Random encounters will have a chance to occur after the first two short rests until the 6-8 encounters happened.
3) random encounters do not count toward the number of foes in an adventure, do not provide meaningful treasure and do not give any exp.
4) random encounters migjt, can and will provoke a TPK if players are out of resources.
5) some "adventure" fights are worth more than one encounters, random always count as one and only one encounter. No matter the difficulty.

At first, some players will balk at these notions. After a few games, they will get the picture and go for the attrition style of play. And after a campaign, they might not want to hear of any other type of campaign like my players do.

 

[Oofta]

It's not hard to solve, but the existence of a solution proves the existence of the problem in the first place.

Honestly I haven't really seen 5MWD in actual play - if there are multiple encounters in day often enough that players don't assume they can rest after every fight, they'll get into the habit of conserving resources.

BUT once the habit of 5MWD is set in, it can be very hard to dislodge it. Players who realize they're much more effective playing that way will want to play that way. And technically they're right: it is the most effective way to play, even if it doesn't make narrative sense and makes the game less fun.

The gritty rest rules are a variant in the DMG.

Don't get me wrong, I think there could be some variants such as different rest periods getting back back some abilities. So if you can do X proficiency times per day you could have a short rest get back 1 use and the longer you rest the more you get back. Similar to wizard's arcane recovery in a way.

It's hard to have 1 size fits all rule though, I use the gritty rest rules in large part because the pacing works for me. It may not for someone that does more traditional dungeon crawls.

 

[Oofta]

The 5 mwd is easy to counter.
1) Assure the players that there will be 6 to 8 encounters per day.
2) Random encounters will have a chance to occur after the first two short rests until the 6-8 encounters happened.
3) random encounters do not count toward the number of foes in an adventure, do not provide meaningful treasure and do not give any exp.
4) random encounters migjt, can and will provoke a TPK if players are out of resources.
5) some "adventure" fights are worth more than one encounters, random always count as one and only one encounter. No matter the difficulty.

At first, some players will balk at these notions. After a few games, they will get the picture and go for the attrition style of play. And after a campaign, they might not want to hear of any other type of campaign like my players do.

I do 4-10 fights with the gritty rest rules, and 2 of the players that are also DMs said after experiencing it they decided to use it for their own games because they liked it so much better.