D&D General IS the 5 min work day a feature or a bug?

[Mort]

Recharge rolls aren't even vaguely attrition based.

Sure, but that's been reserved for NPCs and monsters in 4 and 5e.

I suppose you could introduce it for PCs but it would be an odd balancing act.

 

[Mort]

How did they train them so fast?

We return with new fireballs in 2 days.
One if we have enough healing potions.

Goblins breed really fast and "train" is relative.

The point is, they will still be reacting fortifying getting help. Yes the PCs can overwhelm them with proper tactics and in time (and pulling back resting and coming back may well be optimal strategy) .

But the environment is still reactive and that's the point.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Recharge rolls aren't even vaguely attrition based.

How? On what is this recharge based? Time? Even if it is luck per time it is still attrition. Basically if fights can have any cumulative mechanical effects either due injury or spending resources, and then you have to wait to get that health/resources back it is attrition.

 

[Minigiant]

Why are the goblins suicidal? Why the goblins keep sending up five people attack parties once it is evident that such gets slaughtered? If they're brave, the remaining goblins would attack all together (So 30 or so goblins) or if they think the PCs are just too tough to beat why would they wait to be slaughtered rather than flee with their treasure?

If they all come at once then doesn't it..

1. Make more sense to nova in that fight
2. Putting more goblins in fireball AOE

IRL, no one slowly sweeps loudly room to room, carefully metering out resources. You sneak in an attempt never to never fight, go in using all the roesources you have applicable, or siege grind the foe from the outside. If running out of "bullets" was a thing, you never enter in the first place unless you had to.

 

[Greg Benage]

How? On what is this recharge based? Time? Even if it is luck per time it is still attrition. Basically if fights can have any cumulative mechanical effects either due injury or spending resources, and then you have to wait to get that health/resources back it is attrition.

Look, man, when I say "attrition model of resource management," I mean you get your resource bucket and then you have to manage it over the course of several encounters. You can have resource management that isn't attrition based in the way I'm describing it here. You can have attrition mechanics that aren't resource management. However, rolling recharges every round is neither "attrition" nor "resource management."

Now, if you want to talk about something else, that's fine. But my opinion is that, if you design your game to make players manage limited resources over the span of several encounters, the five-minute-workday is a bug.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Look, man, when I say "attrition model of resource management," I mean you get your resource bucket and then you have to manage it over the course of several encounters. You can have resource management that isn't attrition based in the way I'm describing it here. You can have attrition mechanics that aren't resource management. However, rolling recharges every round is neither "attrition" nor "resource management."

I think it is still resource management in a sense that you have to choose when to use it and then it will be unavailable for a random time. In this instance the time is just absurdly short. (And would utterly break out of combat powers But, yeah, I get what you mean.

Now, if you want to talk about something else, that's fine. But my opinion is that, if you design your game to make players manage limited resources over the span of several encounters, the five-minute-workday is a bug.

Sure. I also don't think that D&D will ever move to a system that wouldn't be in some sense attrition based, even 4e wasn't that, so one probably should think ways to prevent 5MWD from happening.

 

[tetrasodium]

In my game the other day the players all had full hitdice & full hp thanks to a 3.5 style CLW wand but refused to do anything but take a short rest in order to avoid needing to spend those hit dice to recover the exertion they were taking the short rest to recover. I gave them access to the wands in order to see if worries about being low on HP were why the adept & warlock nova duo were always pushing for a rest.
NOVA>rest is so deeply enshrined in the 5e mechanics that a lot of players are not even willing to consider other options IME

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If they all come at once then doesn't it..

1. Make more sense to nova in that fight

I mean if you're sure that the goblins are the only threat you will encounter before you can rest. Are you? You probably shouldn't.

1. Putting more goblins in fireball AOE

Perhaps. Though at this point the goblins might know what to expect and at least try avoid clumping up.

IRL, no one slowly sweeps loudly room to room, carefully metering out resources. You sneak in an attempt never to never fight, go in using all the roesources you have applicable, or siege grind the foe from the outside. If running out of "bullets" was a thing, you never enter in the first place unless you had to.

One would assume that the PCs 'have to'. For some reason they're motivated to do this dangerous thing even though they don't know if they have 'enough bullets' and there is risk of injury or even death.

And of course in real battle one must carefully meter out the limited resources. And if you run out mid mission, that will spell trouble. Contemporary examples shouldn't be too hard to come by!

 

[DND_Reborn]

yeah but what ones stop the 5mwd?

All of them. Just because they players want to rest doesn't mean they should or the story allows it.

The PCs learn the cannot afford to expend all their resources (which causes the 5mwd) because they will never know when the next encounter is coming and how bad it will be. Players have to learn to balance between using resources and having enough "left in the tank" in case something comes along BEFORE they can rest. Rest opportunities might come when they want them, but many times when they want to rest--they can't.

In the dragon hunting example, the PCs return rested, sure, but now face a greater force than intended and not at their choice of time (being ambushed). Maybe they will learn it would have been better to conserve resources and push on to the dragon instead of falling back? By pulling back, they gave the dragon time to set up the ambush OR allowed it to attack them at their camp. In either case, if the battle goes against the PCs does it have to end in a TPK? Of course not. They might be captured, ransomed, enslaved and have to escape, etc.

In the orcs example, having the orcs counter-attack the PCs on the orcs' terms when the PCs are spent and not yet rested teaches the players that, again, it is best not to use everything up and having nothing left to help win when the encounter is unexpected.

I have no idea how you managed to keep the wizards apart, but I see no reason why the DM couldn't have them organize better against the PCs. Honestly, from what you've described it just sounds like the DM allow the PCs to steamroll the wizards.

Anyway, players learn they cannot set the pace of the game to suit themselves in all cases. Sure, there will be times they can rest safely (especially at high levels with spells like Teleport come online), but there should be plenty of times when they can't. If you always allow them to rest on their schedule, you are allowing the problem to persist. Resting should come when the narrative of the story allows. Sometimes player choice will drive that, other times it won't.

In short, the 5mwd occurs because they players use resources and want to get them back to use them again before the next encounter occurs. When the next encounter occurs before the PCs are rested, they learn not to use all the resources. Now, many times the narrative allows rests between each encounter even, but the point is the players won't know that will be the case or even expect it to be because they learn they simple can't rely on it.

 

[Voadam]

But it's still attrition based between rests. Unless it's ALL at wills but, again that's moving pretty far from D&D.

3.5 WotC warlocks were basically all at will magic and they felt fully D&D casters to me as a player and DM.

I played in a 4e game with house rules where dailies could be taken to use a lower level one to be an encounter power and encounter powers could be taken to turn a lower level encounter power into an at will so there could be lots of encounter and at will magic options. It felt fully D&D. It also had a house rule to turn healing surges into fewer surges but encounter based instead of per day based.

If you want to turn D&D into an at will and encounter based magic system it can be done and still feel fully D&D.

If you do then the mechanical incentives to pull out of the dungeon and rest a day/week to nova again after each fight disappear.