D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

[pukunui]

I have no problem with the new format for new DMs, but feel that leaving out a simple fix to allow everyone to get what they want would be a huge mistake. Like the alignment issue, it's possible to find a middle ground.

I keep pushing my suggestion here because I hope others who take the surveys will suggest it to them as well. The more people asking for compromise the better

Fair enough!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Which is useless.

Because if you use all the spells available in a monster caster level, you will blow your party.

If a caster survives long enough to use their caster level... THE PARTY DIES!

If the party allows that to happen, it deserves to die IMO. As most people state, combat typically only lasts a few rounds, 5-8 typically is a long combat. At one spell per turn, the Volo's Evoker will use maybe half a dozen of its 16 spell slots.

No,it's not challenge. You kill your party.

Nope. I have always used spellcasting foes with spell slots and the fights are challenging and exciting, not TPK (in general, if bad luck or bad strategy leads to a TPK--so be it).

theMOTM evoker has 22HD. Let's say it hs 22 caster levels.

Why are you looking at MotM? They changed the HD...

The Evoker in Volo's was CR 9 with 12 HD, not frickin 22 HD. Why they decided to nearly double the hit points from Volo's to MotM is crazy... 5E already suffers from hit point bloat, so I guess they figure why not just layer on some more.

BEFORE:

AFTER:

The Volo's Evoker worked well as a CR 9 foe. I've used it, and it was hardly a party killer.

Meanwhile, the MotM Evoker is a hot mess. It deals 4d10 + 3 damage, implying 17th level-type cantrip damage, which it can do three times in a turn for way more damage than a PC could deal with similar attacks. And yet the spell save DC 15 implies a caster-equivalent level of 9-12 due to the +4 proficiency bonus.

Oi... make up your mind already, WotC.

 

[SkidAce]

How is it hidden when the Vecna dossier leads you to the adventure lol

Sorry, but it sounds like you're looking for criticisms just for criticisms sake at this point.

I will probably never run the adventure. But I certainly WANT/NEED a Vecna.

 

[billd91]

It’s a metagame shift. This happens all the time in games where new elements are regularly introduced, such as TCGs and MOBAs. What’s good one season may no longer be good when something else comes out that counters it. Not because it was nerfed, but because the competitive environment evolved.

If that “metagame shift“ is targeting a PC ability in order to counter it or reduce its effectiveness, it’s a nerf. Particularly if it’s widespread.

 

[pukunui]

The "wizard" tag is superfluous and they have actively attempted to remove any or all signposts that would allow you to define the "class and level" of an NPC as if it was a PC.

The class tags aren't superfluous. They're there for two reasons: 1) to signal that the tagged NPC can use magic items requiring attunement by a member of the tagged class and b) to make them more easily searchable on D&D Beyond.

 

[billd91]

The Evoker in Volo's was CR 9 with 12 HD, not frickin 22 HD. Why they decided to nearly double the hit points from Volo's to MotM is crazy... 5E already suffers from hit point bloat, so I guess they figure why not just layer on some more.

Increasing hit points is relatively small potatoes. He pretty much needs them to really be CR 9.

 

[Minigiant]

If the party allows that to happen, it deserves to die IMO. As most people state, combat typically only lasts a few rounds, 5-8 typically is a long combat. At one spell per turn, the Volo's Evoker will use maybe half a dozen of its 16 spell slots.

That's the point.

If the monster is only designed to cast 8 spells before going down on a bad day, then the monster only needs ~ 8 spell slots.

There is no point to listing a 12th level caster monster's 1st, 2nd, and maybe 3rd level spells. If your 12th level caster is down 1 fireball, that means the party has be hit with 5-7 strong evocation spells and is about to die.

Why do I need to know that they have a 1st level Magic Missile? If I'm using it, it will be on corpses.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's the point.

If the monster is only designed to cast 8 spells before going down on a bad day, then the monster only needs ~ 8 spell slots.

There is no point to listing a 12th level caster monster's 1st, 2nd, and maybe 3rd level spells. If your 12th level caster is down 1 fireball, that means the party has be hit with 5-7 strong evocation spells and is about to die.

Why do I need to know that they have a 1st level Magic Missile? If I'm using it, it will be on corpses.

There are way too many variables to know how every Evoker is going to fight in any given battle, and having a variety of spells (via a full spell list) allows for more options, depending on just how and when the Evoker is encountered.

Why have magic missile? Because sometimes guaranteed damage a PC cannot save against or evade is better.

So, I can have a complete spell list with lots of options of how I want to run my Evoker, or I can have a fixed stat block with limited options...

And yeah, I know I can "give whatever I want to change a stat block", but I am not fond of doing that since it basically means I might as well just throw down whatever info I want and not worry about game systems, mechanics, balance, or a myriad of other things.

 

[Charlaquin]

If that “metagame shift“ is targeting a PC ability in order to counter it or reduce its effectiveness, it’s a nerf. Particularly if it’s widespread.

I don’t agree; a nerf is when you change a thing to make it weaker, not when you add a new thing to counter something. Additionally, I don’t even think this change is targeted at any particular PC ability or set of abilities. I don’t think the designers sat down and said, “what can we do to make counterspell and other anti-magic abilities worse?” I think they wanted to change the way they design monster stats, to give them more unique abilities that aren’t tied to the PC spell lists, and simultaneously make them a little easier for DMs (especially new DMs) to run. The metagame shift is a side-effect of that, which they seem to be ok with, not the primary intent of the change.

 

[Minigiant]

There are way too many variables to know how every Evoker is going to fight in any given battle, and having a variety of spells (via a full spell list) allows for more options, depending on just how and when the Evoker is encountered.

Why have magic missile? Because sometimes guaranteed damage a PC cannot save against or evade is better.

So, I can have a complete spell list with lots of options of how I want to run my Evoker, or I can have a fixed stat block with limited options...

And yeah, I know I can "give whatever I want to change a stat block", but I am not fond of doing that since it basically means I might as well just throw down whatever info I want and not worry about game systems, mechanics, balance, or a myriad of other things.

You can cast magic missile at higher level.

My question was

Why do I need to know that they have a 1st level Magic Missile?

Even on Player Characters, much lower level spells are weaker than cantrips.

So why do I need to know what a 1st level slot will do on a one shot monster who will never ever use them outside of a TPK?

Just tell me the spells I would actually use. If I want to trade out CoC for a 5th level MM, then I am doing advanced DMing and could figure that out anyway.