D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

[beancounter]

1999 called and would like its conspiracy theory back.

If it wasn't for the Illuminati, Y2K would have destroyed civilization.

 

[Thomas Rainsborough]

Again, we have been talking about NPCs with characters like abilities. Even the drow priestesses were following the general rules. I don't care one iota about monstrous NPCs such as demons and such. These were fine.

The main problem is that future product will follow that pattern whether I want it or not. This will force me, yes force me and others like me to readjust the foes to our taste of the original 5ed. Yep, my future 5ed books will give me a lot of work and there are books that I have been waiting foe a long time that are coming (Spelljammer) but their monsters will conform to the new stat blocks.

For good or bad, this is a very big change in philosophy and monster building. Again, if they wanted and had the balls to be clear, they would simply wait for 6ed and we would all be in the same wagon. But this is not what we have now.

I don't plan on using this new book much (or at all). I already take my spell casters from the MM, Volo's, and the real Mord's, and rejig them most of the time since WOTC really has no clue how to build spell lists. But the fact that I (actually, I mean any DM unfortunate enough not to have copies of the original books) will have to build from scratch stat blocks with spells is ridiculous. Most won't, and the game is weaker for it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

For good or bad, this is a very big change in philosophy and monster building. Again, if they wanted and had the balls to be clear, they would simply wait for 6ed and we would all be in the same wagon. But this is not what we have now.

Yes, the new Vecna stat block is a perfect example of "pre-edition" content for 6E, which is fully compatible with 5E, to see what the market thinks about it.

FWIW, I have MtoM and will not be using anything in it. I already have the other books, and they keep things the way I want them. If I feel I want to bring in Vecna someday, I can make my own or borrow the version made by @dave2008 (with some minor tweaks ).

 

[Thomas Rainsborough]

Btw, just as a question but since when is a Lich always a wizard? Why not a sorcerer or a warlock or a cleric or a ranger for that matter?

Granted Vecna started life as a wizard, but only because in 1e an MU was the only thing he could be.

Why does Vecna the lich have to be a wizard? And what kind of wizard? How come he doesn’t get sub-class abilities? What gives? 5e is totally letting everyone down here by not following the pc creation rules.

I mean if we’re going toinsist on following the rules shouldn’t we follow all of them?

At least only when dealing with casters. Non-casters of course don’t matter.

I have built Undead Warlocks (Undead Patron) and the DMG's Death Clerics that can be characterized as Lich-like. It takes quite a bit of time, but I steal stuff from MM's Lich, plus the real Mord's Deathlock Wight and Mastermind, among other sources, to cobble together Lich-Like Warlocks and Clerics.

 

[Thomas Rainsborough]

Yes, the new Vecna stat block is a perfect example of "pre-edition" content for 6E, which is fully compatible with 5E, to see what the market thinks about it.

FWIW, I have MtoM and will not be using anything in it. I already have the other books, and they keep things the way I want them. If I feel I want to bring in Vecna someday, I can make my own or borrow the version made by @dave2008 (with some minor tweaks ).

Sadly, you are 100% correct.

I am interested in potential schism that will take place in 2024. How many players and DM's will gravitate to the new hotness that is intellectual pablum and how many will stick with something that requires more brainpower to play. I already run a 1e game (and soon two 5e games), and see many DM's drifting away from D&D altogether. Will there be another split in the D&D crowd like there was in the years Pathfinder was created?

 

[beancounter]

Why? And I don't mean this snarkily. I mean this as a real question. What function would having 40+ known spells listed in his stat block?



And, we're right back to the appeals to the unknown mass of DM's who apparently can do this. Never minding that there is a preponderance of evidence that shows this not to be true - live plays and actual recordings of play demonstrating that even experienced (and some VERY experienced) DM's can't run complex spell casters without making mistakes. Never minding that people have been complaining for YEARS that high level play is too difficult. Never minding that 5e has already rejected the idea of forcing monsters to follow PC design rules. Apparently, there's this silent mass of DM's out there who can perfectly run these creatures without error.

For variety, and creativity in using the spells to counter the parties efforts
Sure, there is some variety with his current stats, but why not make all wizard spells available to him?

 

[Stoutstien]

Again, we have been talking about NPCs with characters like abilities. Even the drow priestesses were following the general rules. I don't care one iota about monstrous NPCs such as demons and such. These were fine.

The main problem is that future product will follow that pattern whether I want it or not. This will force me, yes force me and others like me to readjust the foes to our taste of the original 5ed. Yep, my future 5ed books will give me a lot of work and there are books that I have been waiting foe a long time that are coming (Spelljammer) but their monsters will conform to the new stat blocks.

For good or bad, this is a very big change in philosophy and monster building. Again, if they wanted and had the balls to be clear, they would simply wait for 6ed and we would all be in the same wagon. But this is not what we have now.

The point is "character like" is 100% subjective because the game doesn't make any clear parallel or pattern connecting them to each other. You are adding them in and getting angry that those perceived normalized constants aren't holding.

5e has horrible DM support but so does 3.x, pathfinder, and most TTRPGs. Changing npc blocks format doesn't even make the top 10 for issues in that regard.

 

[Helldritch]

Honestly: Is this really "a lot of work"? Dead serious. Are you really saying you have to put in hours and hours and hours?

How do you even make custom caster NPCs if that's the case?

The basic foes are quite nice for my needs as they are in the MM right now. If I need to make a change it is what? A minute or two? A spell selection here and there and voilà ! It is done.

But with this new stat block, I will need to take the DMG and adjust things, retrofit the whole stat block to respect both the intent and the appropriate CR.

Jist take Vecna, at the base it is a caster, a lich. Now I need to add spell slots, choose the spells and new abilities and compare these new abities to the current stat block and the evaluate with the guidelines in the DMG if I did a good approximated job.

With the classic stat block, if a spell is not to my taste, I simply pick an other one of the same level and I am done and good to go. Whether you acknowledge it or not, for those that play with the MM and 5ed starting design, this is a huge change. Much more drastic than the alignment change they attempted a few books ago.

 

[Minigiant]

He should have all the spells and spell slots of an 20+ level arch mage.

Why?

If he can't cast them all in a fight without a TPK.

 

[Helldritch]

The point is "character like" is 100% subjective because the game doesn't make any clear parallel or pattern connecting them to each other. You are adding them in and getting angry that those perceived normalized constants aren't holding.

5e has horrible DM support but so does 3.x, pathfinder, and most TTRPGs. Changing npc blocks format doesn't even make the top 10 for issues in that regard.

No.
A drow can be played by a player and all drow NPCs follow the pattern.

The NPC appendices follow the pattern too. Only monstrous NPCs use the other rule that is now the new standard.