D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

[Hussar]

He should have all the spells and spell slots of an 20+ level arch mage.

Why? And I don't mean this snarkily. I mean this as a real question. What function would having 40+ known spells listed in his stat block?

But there are many many DM's who DO have the experience and organizational skills to run complex spell casters, especially ones that were historically spell casters first and foremost. These changes badly hurt their options, and adds a ton of DM prep time as DM's now have to add them back in (or simply ignore them and stick with the real Mord's...yeah, I have a a copy of that and it will never go away).

And, we're right back to the appeals to the unknown mass of DM's who apparently can do this. Never minding that there is a preponderance of evidence that shows this not to be true - live plays and actual recordings of play demonstrating that even experienced (and some VERY experienced) DM's can't run complex spell casters without making mistakes. Never minding that people have been complaining for YEARS that high level play is too difficult. Never minding that 5e has already rejected the idea of forcing monsters to follow PC design rules. Apparently, there's this silent mass of DM's out there who can perfectly run these creatures without error.

 

[Hussar]

The thing that bugs me to no end with the old/new stat block is that it us a profound change in the starting philosophy of 5ed. Monsters were having spell like abilities and character like foes would have class abilities. Yes there were a few exceptions but most foes were following the basic guidelines. And all were fine.

I just love how these changes are suddenly a big deal when they were largely ignored for years. These weren't "exceptions". Virtually none of the monsters follow PC rules. The only ones that did used the caster slots as a shorthand for giving the baddies a bunch of spells, most of which would never see play.

But anything that wasn't a caster? Yeah, didn't follow PC rules at all. Heck, there's a post, like two above the quoted one here that talks about how the MM rogues don't have sneak attack. This isn't anything new.

 

[Helldritch]

I just love how these changes are suddenly a big deal when they were largely ignored for years. These weren't "exceptions". Virtually none of the monsters follow PC rules. The only ones that did used the caster slots as a shorthand for giving the baddies a bunch of spells, most of which would never see play.

But anything that wasn't a caster? Yeah, didn't follow PC rules at all. Heck, there's a post, like two above the quoted one here that talks about how the MM rogues don't have sneak attack. This isn't anything new.

You know that the bug is about the foes that are character classed casters right?

 

[Stoutstien]

You know that the bug is about the foes that are character classed casters right?

A PC wizard≠NPC wizard. NPCs don't have a class unless the DM gives them one so they aren't forced to remain within those restrictions. If a DM wants to build every caster to follow the same rules as PCs they are free to do so and is a suggestion in the DMG as an option.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I simply wish that 5ed be left as it was and that WotC had the courage to throw the edition the developing team has in mind instead of perverting further the game we had in 2015.

Let them throw at us 6ed and we will see what the players truly want. The 5ed philosophy or the new philosophy that the dev team wants to take.

I agree with this completely.

All of these "changes" could have been put into effect in 6E instead of trying to shift things in 5E mid-lifespan.

You know that the bug is about the foes that are character classed casters right?

Or, in the case of a lich, were character classed...

Which is unfortunate, really, because as undead with the right fluff, now their magic could have become corrupted and warped, no longer resembling how mortals manipulate magic. Liches are not tethered to the limits of mortal spellcasting, having developed innate spell-like powers instead. (And so on...).

 

[Thomas Rainsborough]

Why? And I don't mean this snarkily. I mean this as a real question. What function would having 40+ known spells listed in his stat block?



And, we're right back to the appeals to the unknown mass of DM's who apparently can do this. Never minding that there is a preponderance of evidence that shows this not to be true - live plays and actual recordings of play demonstrating that even experienced (and some VERY experienced) DM's can't run complex spell casters without making mistakes. Never minding that people have been complaining for YEARS that high level play is too difficult. Never minding that 5e has already rejected the idea of forcing monsters to follow PC design rules. Apparently, there's this silent mass of DM's out there who can perfectly run these creatures without error.

You cut the part where I have reversed myself to limiting a BBEG to 5-7 high end spell slots, because the lower spell slots simply won't be used. But as to you suggesting that the mass of DM's can't run complex fights because of what you see from streams of DM's supposedly playing D&D...nope.

First off, anyone who is actually streaming their game, or doing it a a Con, is NOT focusing on the game as much as the presentation of the game to the audience. And 99.999% of all DM's never stream their games. And as soon as they do it for money, nope, no longer do I consider that a real D&D session. You want to watch a real DM do a real session? Watch Bill Silvey on You Tube run his AD&D 1e game, to a whopping 20 viewers. He does it for the love of the game, has zero production values for his session, but DM's beautifully.

Secondly, I can most certainly handle complex BBEG spell casters. I have been doing it for a long long time. Every one of my Dragons also gets Spell Casting (watch a group lose their mind when a Dragon starts Misty Stepping or Far Stepping over a battlefield). You have zero idea about how many can, but I have played with enough to know it is a much larger number than you would like to admit.

So yeah, WOTC could have kept the top end spell casting slots, a large list of spells, while also adding in all this simplified stuff for lesser DM's. The BBEG's still only have one Action. They still have to CHOOSE between casting a spell or using some innate ability. But no, they chose pretty pictures over more verbiage.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But no, they chose pretty pictures over more verbiage.

If you even consider the pictures "pretty". Personally, I think the new Vecna art looks horrible...

 

[Nebulous]

I have not delved into my new MotM book yet, can Vecna upcast his at will lightning bolts the way he could have if he had spell slots?

No, I don't think he can. What he SHOULD have is maximized lightning bolt at-will. I mean, he needs to be scary. He IS scary, he has some frightful combat abilities, but OTOH, it is disappointing that he is stripped down to a combat encounter. With prestidigitation.

 

[DND_Reborn]

No, I don't think he can. What he SHOULD have is maximized lightning bolt at-will. I mean, he needs to be scary. He IS scary, he has some frightful combat abilities, but OTOH, it is disappointing that he is stripped down to a combat encounter. With prestidigitation.

And mage hand! We cannot forget about mage hand...

 

[Thomas Rainsborough]

If you even consider the pictures "pretty". Personally, I think the new Vecna art looks horrible...

Fair point.