D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

[DEFCON 1]

Like every other thing in the 5E game (and the 4E game, 3E game etc.)... whether any one bit is better or worse, is useful or isn't, is difficult to use or easy to use... it ALL comes down to how the DM and the players approach their game. And as all tables approach the game differently, feel certain parts of the game are more important than others, feel certain rules are more important than others, feel certain styles of roleplay are more important than others... there will never be an agreement about what truly is or isn't good or necessary with any potential change.

Something like Prestidigitation is one example. Does that need to be in a "caster statblock"?

- For some people they will say 'No, not at all'... because for them the caster spellblock is there purely to represent the "enemy combatant" the party will be engaging with, and thus any non-combat spells for an enemy that will only be lasting like 3 rounds before being killed are a waste of space.

- For other people they will say "Yes, absolutely!", because they will see the character that has that "caster statblock" as an actual character to interact with on a personal level (granted, a 'non-player' character), so the expectation is that this character will absolutely see use outside of combat and thus we need to see all of what this character is capable of and can have at their disposal for any other type of encounter the PCs might have with them.

- For still others, they will say "No, not at all..." like the first group, but for the same reason as the second group-- the DM knows this 'non-player' character has a body of abilities outside of strictly combat... but it's not necessary for it to be written down. If the players happen to interact with this NPC spellcaster outside of a combat scenario, the DM can just decide in the moment what the character can do. The statblock isn't a full protrait of everything the NPC knows and is capable of... it's merely a snapshot of some of the most likely things it can do for the DM's ease-of-use in the moment. But the DM can change things at any time if it seems likely. In the moment if the DM thinks "this spellcaster can wave their hand and light all the candle in the room"... the DM can just have the NPC do that, even if Prestidigitation wasn't down "officially" in the statblock as a spell for that caster.

Now here's the thing (in relation to what I said in the original paragraph)... every one of these three options are going to have almost every person have a visceral reaction to probably one of them that will amount to "ARE YOU KIDDING?!? NO, NO, NO! THAT'S NOT HOW THE GAME IS TO BE PLAYED!!!" For some people, what is written down is sacrosanct-- it is the display of the reality of the world. For others, what is written down is just what will be necessary to use for game purposes-- the game needs certain things to be present to play the game effectively, and anything outside of game usefulness is just getting in the way. And for others, the game world and the characters in it are so broad and far-reaching that it is impossible to quantify it all by just writing it down-- so the truth and the reality for what is happening at the table can come into being as it happens through the impulses and imaginations of the DM and players. The truth isn't set until it shows up at the table in the game, and everything written down behind the screen are 'Schrodinger's DM Notes'-- both existing and not existing until the it shows up in game.

And none of us are correct, and none of us are incorrect. It's all down to what we personally want and need. And at no point will WotC be able to feed all three groups equally... all they can do is decide what they think will be most useful to the most amount of people... leaning in the direction of inexperienced D&D players first (under the expectation than more experienced players can do things on their own if what WotC gives is not to their preferences.)

 

[dave2008]

My main takeaway from this thread is that I wish we had named our new puppy Vecna.

I came across a dog named Azula the other day - I thought that was pretty baller.

 

[Shardstone]

4ed had a lot of good going for it. But the part that was against it was its downfall. Casters.

Yep, casters. They all felt like the same class, fighters with funny names for their powers. The wizards and clerics in particular felt bland and tasteless and guess what? It was the same on the monster's side. Monster spell casters felt bland and tasteless to run. Just like the PCs as casters were bland and tasteless. They all lack the versatility of choosing their spells, the preparation for a definite situation which might not be the same as the one before or the next.

The caster strength is not in the damage it can dish out, it is in the variatiety of the situations it can cope with. Like it or hate it, the spell slot system of BECMI, 1ed, 2ed, 3.xed and 5ed did and still do the job almost perfectly. Be it on the PC's side or NPC's, it does the job. It might looks confusing for the inexperienced, but it is simply a matter of presentation in the MM and nothing else. Had they presented casting foes with highlighted spells useful In combat instead of jamming the selection with useless spells it would have been easier.

I do the exact thing I said with novice DM. I make a photocopy of the mage NPC in the MM and simply highlight the useful stuff for an encounter and guess what? It is almost as if I was a god to them. The new stat block simply do the same but it removes the rest. And that is this removal that makes these NPC special in the first place.

Prestidigitation might not do a lot in combat, but in an RP scene it might do quite a lot. And it is these small details that makes the game so much more believable and poignant. Adding details is not the the first instinctual thing to do when you start DMing and it is why the presence of some spell filler for RP is important. Because for the beginning DMs, if it is not written, it simply does not exists. And the new stat blocks just remove those. And like in 4ed, some foes suddenly becomes bland and tasteless automatons fit only for combat...

I think a spell point system designed a bit more cleverly then the DMG version would be more enjoyable for me than slots.

 

[Shardstone]

Like every other thing in the 5E game (and the 4E game, 3E game etc.)... whether any one bit is better or worse, is useful or isn't, is difficult to use or easy to use... it ALL comes down to how the DM and the players approach their game. And as all tables approach the game differently, feel certain parts of the game are more important than others, feel certain rules are more important than others, feel certain styles of roleplay are more important than others... there will never be an agreement about what truly is or isn't good or necessary with any potential change.

Something like Prestidigitation is one example. Does that need to be in a "caster statblock"?

- For some people they will say 'No, not at all'... because for them the cast spellblock is there purely to represent the "enemy combatant" the party will be engaging with, and thus any non-combat spells for an enemy that will only be lasting like 3 rounds before being killed are a waste of space.

- For other people they will say "Yes, absolutely!", because they will see the character that has that "caster statblock" as an actual character to interact with on a personal level (granted, a 'non-player' character), so the expectation is that this character will absolutely see use outside of combat and thus we need to see all of what this character is capable of and can have at their disposal for any other type of encounter the PCs might have with them.

- For still others, they will say "No, not at all..." like the first group, but for the same reason as the second group-- the DM knows this 'non-player' character has a body of ability outside of strictly combat... but it's not necessary for it to be written down. If the players happen to interact with this NPC spellcaster outside of a combat scenario, the DM can just decide in the moment what the character can do. The statblock isn't a full protrait of everything the NPC knows and is capable of... it's merely a snapshot of some of the most likely things it can do for the DM's ease-of-use in the moment. But the DM can change things at any time if it seems likely. In the moment if the DM thinks "this spellcaster can wave their hand and light all the candle in the room"... the DM can just have the NPC do that, even if Prestidigitation wasn't down "officially" in the statblock as a spell for that caster.

Now here's the thing (in relation to what I said in the original paragraph)... every one of these three options are going to have almost every person have a visceral reaction to probably one of them that will amount to "ARE YOU KIDDING?!? NO, NO, NO! THAT'S NOT HOW THE GAME IS TO BE PLAYED!!!" For some people, what is written down is sacrosanct-- it is the display of the reality of the world. For others, what is written down is just what will be necessary to use for game purposes-- the game needs certain things to be present to play the game effectively, and anything outside of game usefulness is just getting in the way. And for others, the game world and the characters in it are so broad and far-reaching that it is impossible to quantify it all by just writing it down-- so the truth and the reality for what is happening at the table can come into being as it happens through the impulses and imaginations of the DM and players. The truth isn't set until it shows up at the table in the game, and everything written down behind the screen are 'Schrodinger's DM Notes'-- both existing and not existing until the it shows up in game.

And none of us are correct, and none of us are incorrect. It's all down to what we personally want and need. And at no point will WotC be able to feed all three groups equally... all they can do is decide what they think will be most useful to the most amount of people... leaning in the direction of inexperienced D&D players first (under the expectation than more experienced players can do things on their own if what WotC gives is not to their preferences.)

I agree completely. The thing is, not everyone has to have that reaction.

D&D is a massive game that appeals to a huge variety of markets. It is so hard for people, especially on this forum, to understand that. This is why I say people here are spoiled. For 4 generations has D&D catered to a small selection of demographics because this demographic is what stuck with them. But now that D&D has finally figured out how to attract regular people who consider D&D just a fleeting interest or passing hobby, these people are being left behind.

But that's good. The game is being made into something that is closer to what they said it would be during the Next Playtests: hyper-modular, capable of fitting many tables. Streamed down casters that don't have many moving parts on their stat block make it easy for you to go in and add the material you want while novice DMs who struggle with this can still get a fun experience out of it. And that word experience is the core part.

In 2022, D&D is selling experiences. Fun stories of life and death with rewards at the end that all makes you feel like you just built up some great myth. D&D is not about a caster stat block being equal to a wizard, which is in and of itself a silly thing, given that narratively no two wizards should ever be alike and not all magic can be used by everyone. The arguments brought up against the design philosophy behind D&D ultimately smack of gatekeeping. People are literally saying that because they took time management courses in college, that everyone should be able to dedicate the time that they do to D&D. Its such utter horsepoop and I would have never expected Enworld to actually churn out this many gatekeepers.

 

[DND_Reborn]

WotC's carefully tuned and extensively playtested CR computation

Oh, that was hilarious! Sigh... That was great.

Why would removal be less likely to disrupt this perfect harmony?

Yep... good one!

that is not always how the human mind works

Sure, it is not always the case, but generally is IME and in studies I have read. Of course, we are always learning new things about how people work.

As an example: If I had a red dragon that was a 5th level spellcaster and the statblock had all the spells and slots of such a caster, I am likely to skip those completely. However, if a want a plain old red dragon to cast a fireball, well I know that spell well and I can just do it. No fuss, no worry. In game it is more stressful for me to look through a list of spells and pick versus just going with my "gut."

Which is my point. It is there if you want to use it, and the fact you are ignoring it completely means you are, in fact, removing something already present. But in all likelihood, fireball would be on that spell list...

You are then going the next step (which is fine, of course), to add something back in the second case. But as I said, it was likely already there in the spell list. So, all you are really doing (it seems to me anyway) is ignoring the spell slots and other spell options.

But, also, maybe easier for you and me. But we aren't the audience here. I'm ok with that.

Wait a minute... don't you play 5E? I do. Doesn't that make me (at least) part of the audience for the game???

 

[Shardstone]

Oh, that was hilarious! Sigh... That was great.


Yep... good one!


Sure, it is not always the case, but generally is IME and in studies I have read. Of course, we are always learning new things about how people work.


Which is my point. It is there if you want to use it, and the fact you are ignoring it completely means you are, in fact, removing something already present. But in all likelihood, fireball would be on that spell list...

You are then going the next step (which is fine, of course), to add something back in the second case. But as I said, it was likely already there in the spell list. So, all you are really doing (it seems to me anyway) is ignoring the spell slots and other spell options.


Wait a minute... don't you play 5E? I do. Doesn't that make me (at least) part of the audience for the game???

You're a part of a niche audience who wants the game to be more difficult so that new players can't join.

 

[Helldritch]

I think a spell point system designed a bit more cleverly then the DMG version would be more enjoyable for me than slots.

That could be a thing. But most system with mana points ends up with an exhaustive spell list a mile long or so short a list as to not have any choices at all. Optimizing mana for theist efficient cost/effective spells effectively means that only some spells ever get used.

The spell slot system is not perfect but the Vania casting system has the advantage of variety directly built in the system. And in 5ed, it also has the additional benefits of seeing low level spell slots shift from damage to utility. For me that is a big bonus even though I would have preferred spells to increase in damage with casters' levels and not spell slots' levels.

 

[Shardstone]

That could be a thing. But most system with mana points ends up with an exhaustive spell list a mile long or so short a list as to not have any choices at all. Optimizing mana for theist efficient cost/effective spells effectively means that only some spells ever get used.

The spell slot system is not perfect but the Vania casting system has the advantage of variety directly built in the system. And in 5ed, it also has the additional benefits of seeing low level spell slots shift from damage to utility. For me that is a big bonus even though I would have preferred spells to increase in damage with casters' levels and not spell slots' levels.

Indeed, your claims are true for a typical mana system. I think there are numerous ways to make it more nuanced while keeping it streamlined and elegant. I'll share my research into this once I have finished this project I'm currently working on.

 

[Helldritch]

I agree completely. The thing is, not everyone has to have that reaction.

D&D is a massive game that appeals to a huge variety of markets. It is so hard for people, especially on this forum, to understand that. This is why I say people here are spoiled. For 4 generations has D&D catered to a small selection of demographics because this demographic is what stuck with them. But now that D&D has finally figured out how to attract regular people who consider D&D just a fleeting interest or passing hobby, these people are being left behind.

But that's good. The game is being made into something that is closer to what they said it would be during the Next Playtests: hyper-modular, capable of fitting many tables. Streamed down casters that don't have many moving parts on their stat block make it easy for you to go in and add the material you want while novice DMs who struggle with this can still get a fun experience out of it. And that word experience is the core part.

In 2022, D&D is selling experiences. Fun stories of life and death with rewards at the end that all makes you feel like you just built up some great myth. D&D is not about a caster stat block being equal to a wizard, which is in and of itself a silly thing, given that narratively no two wizards should ever be alike and not all magic can be used by everyone. The arguments brought up against the design philosophy behind D&D ultimately smack of gatekeeping. People are literally saying that because they took time management courses in college, that everyone should be able to dedicate the time that they do to D&D. Its such utter horsepoop and I would have never expected Enworld to actually churn out this many gatekeepers.

You know that not naming me does not make it less personnal don't you?

Yes I took time management courses to help me and it did. But I am far from gatekeeping the game. I probably helped more young DMs and players than you did. And that is with the game that launched and not the modified version they are throwing down our throats.

The new stat block works for you? Great. It does not for a lot of us and for a lot of reasons. Game design reasons. And these are not only ingrained in the game, but changing them do change how the game is built and will evolve (or should I say devolve?). That you like the new 4ed way is of no consequence for the impact it has on the design philosophy that was behind 5ed.

You do not want to learn to manage your time, good. It was an advice. Not an obligation. A simple.piece of advice. I am sorry that it struck such a hurting feeling in you. But it was just a piece of advice that has worked for.me and many others. It might not be your cup of tea, but do not let your tastes cloud your judgment.

 

[Shardstone]

You know that not naming me does not make it less personnal don't you?

Yes I took time management courses to help me and it did. But I am far from gatekeeping the game. I probably helped more young DMs and players than you did. And that is with the game that launched and not the modified version they are throwing down our throats.

The new stat block works for you? Great. It does not for a lot of us and for a lot of reasons. Game design reasons. And these are not only ingrained in the game, but changing them do change how the game is built and will evolve (or should I say devolve?). That you like the new 4ed way is of no consequence for the impact it has on the design philosophy that was behind 5ed.

You do not want to learn to manage your time, good. It was an advice. Not an obligation. A simple.piece of advice. I am sorry that it struck such a hurting feeling in you. But it was just a piece of advice that has worked for.me and many others. It might not be your cup of tea, but do not let your tastes cloud your judgment.

You simplified all that into "you do not want to learn time management."

You paint this in such a pretentious and gross way. The issues I may or may not have with getting my games scheduled, and that many more people may or may not have, cannot be reduced to such an inhuman and uncaring idea. The one with the clouded judgement is you, not me.

WotC understands this. WotC understands that the people who play their game, and the people who want to play their game but don't, need more easy to understand tools. Otherwise, the game stagnates, and we go back to a new edition every 4-5 years, and D&D remains the crapshoot it was in the 4E era in terms of being a cultural phenomenon.

Sorry if this sounds rude, but you telling me that dealing with a terrible economy, a terrible job market, a terrible healthcare system, and any other personal issues I could potentially have, from mental illness to deaths in the family etc, are just me and others like me not wanting to learn time management is so flagrantly disrespectful to a massive audience that plays D&D.