D&D General Al-Qadim, Campaign Guide: Zakhara, and Cultural Sensitivity

MGibster

Legend
Because it's not just using something invented by another culture. It's misusing something of importance to a another culture. It's little non-Native American kids running around wearing "Indian headdresses" and going "woo woo woo." It's putting a statue of Ganesh in your living room solely because you think it's looks nice with your decor, not because you have respect for for that god or religion. It's tattooing yourself with Maori tattoos without any care about what those tattoos actually mean.

It's a little more complicated than that, right? The Fleur-de-lis is strongly associated with France, though it's used in other European nations, but I've never heard anyone complain when Americans or others appropriate it. The Sisters of Battle, a faction of women wearing fetish nun gear in space, from Games Workshop's Warhammer 40k uses the Fleur-de-lis as their symbol, and I can't recall anyone ever complaining about it. I could liberally "borrow" elements from Finnish, German, English, Welsh, and Irish culturally or you could borrow from American culture and it's unlikely anyone would decry it as cultural appropriation. So there must be something more to it than just using something invented by another culture and misusing it.

I think in many caes it has more to do with the relationship between the culture that borrowed, or appropriated, the cultural artifact versus the culture that it was borrowed from. Borrowing from France is fine because the French, they're wealthy, and and they have a long history of exporting its culture to the four corners of the Earth which is also true of the United States.

I don't mean to imply that the idea of cultural (mis)appropriation isn't real. But it's kind of like pornography in that I can't always define it clearly, but I know it when I see it.
 

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Ixal

Hero
Because, as mentioned, it's a board game. Unless there is a specific need to include them because it makes for a better game there is no specific need to include them. And given just how badly the historical role of the harem is misunderstood by people with very limited understandings there is no need to force harems down peoples' throats, gavage style, just because they happened to exist and because they existed and people had never been there wrote lurid fantasies about them that have escaped into Western popular culture. There are plenty of other things that were part of the culture that get no mention. So why force harems in there when they aren't relevant and the default Western conception of them is ahistorical?
Do you actually read what is written?
Its not about the game requiring harem, its that they absence is specifically praised even though they were part of the local culture.
According to this expert its better to falsely represent the culture there than to present it accurately.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
@MGibster, there's also the fact that France hasn't been exploited in the same way as a lot of other cultures have been.

The fluer-di-lis may also not be French in origin and was used by many countries, not just France. And anyway, it was historically used (according to Wikipedia, at least) used by French monarchs to represent French Catholic saints. So it perhaps had less of a cultural importance past the French Revolution and thus is more non-offensive to "steal."
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Do you actually read what is written?
Its not about the game requiring harem, its that they absence is specifically praised even though they were part of the local culture.
According to this expert its better to falsely represent the culture there than to present it accurately.
When most games that invoke a particular culture choose to incorporate a trope that is non-historical and unnecessary for the game, simply so the game can use all the tropes associated with that culture, then yes, it's kind of remarkable when a game chooses to not rely on that trope.
 

I would say that Eberron with its mystery about the true nature of the gods and allowing any alignment to be a follower of any god is closer to a model of realism and historical accuracy than Forgotten Realms active materially manifesting gods with (depending on edition) strong alignment restrictions for religions.

Religions doing enough evil would not be good in D&D alignment terms, the fact that they are worshiping neutral or good gods would not turn the evil actions not actually evil.

Doing some evil but significantly more good might be enough to still be good, but that is a judgment call.

FR seems to be a model of including historical inquisition type evil in a fantasy D&D western analogue.
That wasn't FR when it came to worshiper alignment. That was all settings before Eberron came along. Heck, Dragonlance was even more strict!
 

Voadam

Legend
Though I have personally taken an Eberron-like approach* (and that setting was absolutely one of my inspirations for doing so), it's completely possible to have legitimately good religions worshipping legitimately good entities which still, nonetheless, go wrong and do evil things.
I agree.
So...yeah. Even with legitimately good deities who promulgate legitimately good doctrine and who have followers generally desiring to do good to and for others, it is still 100% possible to have branches or sects that go astray and potentially even become outright villains. Human imperfections are like that, sadly.
And that villainy is evil in most D&D alignment terms. There is no "Its not a crime if the President does it" defense to recategorize evil into not evil, even if done for good intentions for a good god. Inquisitions with torture to get confessions would generally be considered evil and would generally cause an AD&D or 3e Paladin to fall. It is easier to get away with in good guy religions in Eberron with their alignment stuff, or 4e or 5e with their very light alignment rules when taking things too far for good intentions, but it fits right in with evil D&D religions when done straight and so FR Bane as a lawful evil god of tyranny and oppression and might makes right when dealing with a rival would-be usurper god and his following. Also a Pathfinder or 4e Church of Asmodeus seems ripe for a fantasy analogue inquistion. I had doctrinal and sectarian purity inquisitions as a background thing in my version of Cheliax where Asmodean diabolism is the theocratic state religion.
 

Voadam

Legend
That wasn't FR. That was all settings before Eberron came along. Heck, Dragonlance was even more strict!
I meant to recheck some stuff on the Dragonlance front. I vaguely remember the Seeker religions having some smaller scale inquisition type stuff, maybe a scene in the first novel even, but it has been a long time since I read that one.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
And that villainy is evil in most D&D alignment terms.
Perhaps I was misunderstanding what you meant. I thought you were saying that this meant the churches, as complete hegemonic entities, could not actually be "good" even if they wished to be, because of the possibility (or, more likely, past fact) of doing evil in the name of good things/beings/ideas. Would it be more accurate to say that you're saying any religion in D&D fiction is simply too big to be hegemonically good or evil? That is, a good church can have evil branches, and that while it's unlikely, it's at least theoretically possible for an evil church to have good branches? That is, the evil is objectively evil, but that doesn't make the whole church evil, nor does the overall church being good absolve the deeds of specific branches or of past members thereof.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Do you actually read what is written?
Its not about the game requiring harem, its that they absence is specifically praised even though they were part of the local culture.
According to this expert its better to falsely represent the culture there than to present it accurately.
While accuracy obviously has its merits (particularly if one is writing about a different culture from one's own), accuracy is no excuse.

It is accurate to emphasize that poop smells extraordinarily bad, or that being struck with a savage blow to the stomach should probably cause vomiting and the smell of that vomit could easily be incapacitating to a person. The former is not particularly interesting for gameplay purposes and so, in general, one does not go into details about how stinky the party's cathole is. The latter would be actively a problem for my group, because one of my players has emetophobia and can get thrown out of sorts simply by hearing retching sounds that are a little too realistic, let alone making a big deal out of the experience of vomiting.

Cultural accuracy is a tool, a very important one. We should use it wisely. This doesn't mean "absolutely never deviate even the smallest bit from the cultures you draw on." That would at the very least be completely impossible while also inventing fictional (and usually fantastical) things. What it means is, when you deviate from accuracy, do it with forethought and intent. And it is for that reason that this "inaccuracy" is praised: because it is a willing, knowing, intentional step away from absolute accuracy in order to pursue some end which is, in fact, more important than absolute accuracy in this context. "Some vices miss what is right because they are deficient, others because they are excessive, in feelings or in actions, while virtue finds and chooses the mean."

Even in the purely creative sphere, many intentionally inaccurate things are praised quite highly. The vast majority of Disney stories are almost completely inaccurate to their source material, keeping only the barest veneer of the original story. This is done in part because a lot of classic fairy tales are horribly violent by modern standards, and thus not necessarily fit for everyday consumption by children. But it's also done in part because many of their inaccuracies are actually more interesting or entertaining than the original tale. Turning Hamlet into a heroic comedy where the only victims are King Hamlet and, in the end, his brother Claudius and the latter's collaborators Mufasa and, in the end, his brother Scar and the latter's collaborators is a wildly inaccurate take on all three of medieval Danish history (as if the original play were even remotely historically accurate!), the story as Shakespeare wrote it, or anything remotely like lion social hierarchy. And yet it's really quite a good story, all things considered, and the deviations are more than forgivable (compared to some others I could note, like Hercules, where most changes to both the myth and the cultural context feel jarringly out of place.)

Accuracy is among the virtues of a creative work. That means it can be both deficient and excessive. Claiming that, because one of the sources of inspiration included a thing, it absolutely must be included in the final product and to do otherwise is a horrible affront, regardless of any other considerations to the contrary, is a form of excess. If I had to give it a name, I'd probably call it "pedantry" or "querulousness," as opposed to the vice of deficient accuracy, which would obviously be deception. Finding and choosing the right point between deception and pedantry is not easy. It is thus worthy of praise when, on a difficult and sensitive subject like "communicating a cultural zeitgeist for a foreign culture that is often demonized or vilified," a particular work demonstrates deftness in retaining the spirit and aesthetics of that zeitgeist without exhibiting any of the common overblown vilifications thereof. Even if in so doing, the work ceases to adhere to the highest possible standards of accuracy.

Because, again, accuracy is a tool. It is not an end. We judge the value of that accuracy—even in scientific data!—based on what end the tool strives toward and how well it achieves that end. If higher accuracy gets in the way of productive work—again, even in scientific data!—it not only can be but should be drawn down to a level of accuracy that does not get in the way of productive work. (It is, of course, very rare for higher accuracy to get in the way or productive work when it comes to scientific data. But being more accurate about measuring the density of the luminiferous aether is not productive work because, as we have fairly well established now, there is no luminiferous aether to measure. Higher accuracy measurements of the properties of something that most likely doesn't exist are not productive, no matter how amazingly accurate those measurements might be.)
 
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Ixal

Hero
And yet to me it seems silly that people demand a respectful representation of specific real world cultures, but their idea of respectful is a whitewashed, by western standards, disney version of said culture which has hardly anything in common with the real one.
To me this is the new version of orientalism and shows exactly 0 respect for foreign cultures as its obvious that the culture itself is of no interest to the people demanding them to be represented.
 

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