Friday Musing: What If It Wasn't War Games

[loverdrive]

Yes, I missed that. Where and when were ttrpgs invented?

Text-based roleplaying games, in essence, are very close to TTRPGs and when instant messaging became a thing, the line effectively disappeared altogether. Both use words and only words to, well, roleplay, and whether they're (normally -- there are people who play play-by-post D&D, and it's not uncommon for discord roleplaying to shift into a voice chat) spoken or written doesn't really matter.

At least in ~2007 (and at least here, I've started speaking English only a decade latter, but I'm almost certain that it's not a local phenomena), it wasn't uncommon to see whole communities that actively engage in fantasy roleplaying on daily basis and never ever heard of D&D. To this day, every 2-3 months someone joins one of the Telegram chats I'm in and gets utterly baffled that there are stats and dice and that characters don't normally get reused between different games.

Within the Eastern taxonomy, they've bypassed the old- and mid- school and jumped straight to the new.

 

[Mezuka]

The idea of going down a mad wizard's multi-level dungeon, filled with threats, under a castle, is what ultimately guided the design decisions of the early D&D.

Exploring a mysterious location (Castle Blackmoor) in which fighting monsters, finding secret passages, getting healed to continue, solving puzzles and avoiding traps was the object of the game. That is why combat and exploration rules are the core of D&D.

To have a different game, the focus of the game would have had to be something else. If for example the game had been called Hoods & Hamlets (Robin Hood), there would have been a lot more focus on social interactions.

 

[Reynard]

Text-based roleplaying games, in essence, are very close to TTRPGs and when instant messaging became a thing, the line effectively disappeared altogether. Both use words and only words to, well, roleplay, and whether they're (normally -- there are people who play play-by-post D&D, and it's not uncommon for discord roleplaying to shift into a voice chat) spoken or written doesn't really matter.

At least in ~2007 (and at least here, I've started speaking English only a decade latter, but I'm almost certain that it's not a local phenomena), it wasn't uncommon to see whole communities that actively engage in fantasy roleplaying on daily basis and never ever heard of D&D. To this day, every 2-3 months someone joins one of the Telegram chats I'm in and gets utterly baffled that there are stats and dice and that characters don't normally get reused between different games.

Within the Eastern taxonomy, they've bypassed the old- and mid- school and jumped straight to the new.

I'm not sure of the relevance here. We're talking about the early 1970s.

 

[Mezuka]

I'm not sure of the relevance here. We're talking about the early 1970s.

The relevance is a direct answer to the OP. I don't have to follow your current discussion lead.

 

[loverdrive]

I'm not sure of the relevance here. We're talking about the early 1970s.

All the people in the world didn't magically learn about TTRPGs that were invented by wargamers in the '70s. Some invented them separately, untouched and undisturbed by Kriegsspiel, Chainmail, or D&D, so it's a good example of an alternative evolution path of TTRPGs.

It could've happened 50 years before or 50 years after, does it really matter if there's no connection?

 

[Reynard]

All the people in the world didn't magically learn about TTRPGs that were invented by wargamers in the '70s. Some invented them separately, untouched and undisturbed by Kriegsspiel, Chainmail, or D&D, so it's a good example of an alternative evolution path of TTRPGs.

It could've happened 50 years before or 50 years after, does it really matter if there's no connection?

I would be very interested to see the documentation surrounding the independent development of TTRPGs in, say, 1990, unconnected in any way to other TTRPGs.

 

[Jay Murphy1]

I would be very interested to see the documentation surrounding the independent development of TTRPGs in, say, 1990, unconnected in any way to other TTRPGs.

Same here. Honest.

 

[Jay Murphy1]

Again, this is a logical fallacy. You are begging the question. You are assuming that since TTRPGs ended up with wargame like rules, the only way they would have developed is through wargames when the opposite is true.

I do think it is an interesting question as to why fantasy prevailed, as opposed to something else. TSR published Warriors of Mars at the same time as D&D and Planetary Romance could have been the basis. Was it merely because medieval fantasy and sword and sorcery were in the (nerdy) zeitgeist at the time because of Lord of the Rings and Conan reprints? Or is there something more inherently "RPGable" about fantasy?

I'm not begging the question. I'm identifying qualities the wargaming scene had which made it an ideal place for ttrpg forms to develop. In relation to the opening post my argument is, lacking the existence of a ttrpg, where would you go to satisfy the itch which ttrpg's scratch? Regardless of the multitude of interests and aptitudes a person has, when it comes to ruminating how to live the fiction you are a fan of and inquisitive person would eventually take a look at the wargame scene. I wouldn't talk about how to craft the best 1 minute punk song during a smithy workshop with my friends learning about making horseshoes. I could, but it would be awkward. I'm more likely to find a group of people in a Punk Rock Songwriting Club. Even if I was looking for a completely new way of looking at writing punk rock songs. Even if I am dissatisfied with the forms being used I would study them and internalize them as a jumping off place for my uncharted explorations.

 

[Jay Murphy1]

So all these other groups suggested probably had folks touching on the idea of a form for ttrpg's. Those serious about trying to come up with an answer to this yet to be tested design challenge seemed to migrate to the wargame scene to actually work out the form. Not just discuss it and dream it.

 

[Reynard]

I'm not begging the question. I'm identifying qualities the wargaming scene had which made it an ideal place for ttrpg forms to develop. In relation to the opening post my argument is, lacking the existence of a ttrpg, where would you go to satisfy the itch which ttrpg's scratch? Regardless of the multitude of interests and aptitudes a person has, when it comes to ruminating how to live the fiction you are a fan of and inquisitive person would eventually take a look at the wargame scene. I wouldn't talk about how to craft the best 1 minute punk song during a smithy workshop with my friends learning about making horseshoes. I could, but it would be awkward. I'm more likely to find a group of people in a Punk Rock Songwriting Club. Even if I was looking for a completely new way of looking at writing punk rock songs. Even if I am dissatisfied with the forms being used I would study them and internalize them as a jumping off place for my uncharted explorations.

I appreciate that is how you view it, but I don't see any reason to believe wargaming was the only or even best place for it to have occurred. It just did.

In responding to another poster I did a little digging on the origins of choose-your-own-adventure style game books and they are much older than I knew, starting in the 1930s at least. I can see the possibility of that developing into RPG games over time, with clubs of interest starting to write their own through the maila nd eventually coming physically together. In that case, RPGs would have a much stronger literary and narrative bent, with perhaps an Editor taking the GM role to adjudicate competing narratives of a conflict.