D&D General What Constitutes "Old School" D&D

[tetrasodium]

I came across a video about older vrs newer mmo's that I think has enough parallels to the "what is old school" topic & it lines up well with a lot of the various subthreads of specifics that oldschool was/wasn't.

Spoiler: video here

The video & paradox it talks about also sheds some light on why some people say 3.x was or could be played with an old school style & why 5e discussions so often zero in on how 5e is risk free or how the system itself fights any efforts to add risk to it. People don't want to add those elements of risk back to their game because they want to run a DCC funnel meatgrinder& cackle over the death of PC after PC, they want to add it in order to bring back the positive elements that came with the risk.

 

[overgeeked]

People don't want to add those elements of risk back to their game because they want to run a DCC funnel meatgrinder& cackle over the death of PC after PC, they want to add it in order to bring back the positive elements that came with the risk.

Exactly. I’ve run DCC character funnels, and they’re fun as hell. But that’s not why I want risks and challenges in 5E. I want those things because automatically sailing to an easy victory is damned boring. Sorry that bothers some people, but that’s exactly how 5E is designed. They might as well have it be “don’t roll a 1 and you win.”

 

[tetrasodium]

Exactly. I’ve run DCC character funnels, and they’re fun as hell. But that’s not why I want risks and challenges in 5E. I want those things because automatically sailing to an easy victory is damned boring. Sorry that bothers some people, but that’s exactly how 5E is designed. They might as well have it be “don’t roll a 1 and you win.”

I've run & played dcc funnels too & liken them to a game like beer pong or cornhole. Sure your going to miss most throws, but laughing & maybe doing the shot alongside everyone doing the same is the point.

In the video it talks about the paradox being driven towards easier & easier MMOs to drive player retention & such, that applies to an MMO where the players can only do what the MMO & world is coded to allow them to do. With D&D & other TTrpgs though I think it's somewhat immune to the negative results that push the paradox in the video towards easier & easier MMOrpgs because they have a gm where putting down "cleverly improvised rails" is a big part of their responsibilities at the table. Those rails can be built on the fly so players can come back with better equipment or with something in the world reshaped by player actions to stack the deck on the rematch... Even if we say that the ease of victory 5e is a factor that's meaningfully responsible for 5e's growth for discussion purposes the lengths that the system goes through to make it difficult for the GM to dial the risk back up again is totally unjustified simply because of that "lay down rails" role of the GM who decides that dialing up the risk of nonvictory results is needed to get the kind of game that they want to run with their players.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, you can run a DCC funnel with any flavor of D&D. 'True Four' was a whole set of adventures and write ups of material for doing it in 4e. Its not like the rules actually state NO DEATH TRAPS! for instance. T4 adventures are filled with them, the canonical adventure has 4 doors, 3 of them if you go through, they insta-gank your character, have fun! (there is a fairly obtuse way to figure out which door to use, but it requires first killing a sequence of LEVEL+4 encounters with stuff that has things like save or die poison).

As I say, nobody can accuse any of this of being 'against the rules', the fights are straight up hard fights, and the traps are just doing enough damage you cannot reasonably survive them. I guess you could call all of that 'not kosher 4e' if you want... Its just using the system in a different way. You can surely do the same with 5e. Its not really the SYSTEM that determines lethality, its just how you use it.

 

[overgeeked]

I've run & played dcc funnels too & liken them to a game like beer pong or cornhole. Sure your going to miss most throws, but laughing & maybe doing the shot alongside everyone doing the same is the point.

In the video it talks about the paradox being driven towards easier & easier MMOs to drive player retention & such, that applies to an MMO where the players can only do what the MMO & world is coded to allow them to do. With D&D & other TTrpgs though I think it's somewhat immune to the negative results that push the paradox in the video towards easier & easier MMOrpgs because they have a gm where putting down "cleverly improvised rails" is a big part of their responsibilities at the table. Those rails can be built on the fly so players can come back with better equipment or with something in the world reshaped by player actions to stack the deck on the rematch... Even if we say that the ease of victory 5e is a factor that's meaningfully responsible for 5e's growth for discussion purposes the lengths that the system goes through to make it difficult for the GM to dial the risk back up again is totally unjustified simply because of that "lay down rails" role of the GM who decides that dialing up the risk of nonvictory results is needed to get the kind of game that they want to run with their players.

And yet, 5E is the easiest version of D&D re: default challenge and difficulty. D&D doesn't have to be designed that way, yet they chose to. I don't think it's hard for the referee to dial up the difficulty. Infinite dragons and all that. It’s just incredibly tedious to do so. By default it's so ridiculously easy and non-challenging that players get trained to assume that's how it should be so even slightly ramping up the difficulty causes all kinds of negative player responses. I’ve had players rage quit after taking one point of damage, for example.

Where it gets weird is in specific challenges and difficulty from older editions. Wilderness survival, light, weight carried, food, water, gold, healing, etc. Staples of the older game that long-time fans are more likely to want to bring back are forced to house rule the game. No one game can be all things to all players, sure, but if those thing aren’t worth bothering about anymore, what’s left? Superhero fantasy? Okay, but D&D is a terrible game for that.

 

[tetrasodium]

And yet, 5E is the easiest version of D&D re: default challenge and difficulty. D&D doesn't have to be designed that way, yet they chose to. I don't think it's hard for the referee to dial up the difficulty. Infinite dragons and all that. It's just that by default it's so ridiculously easy and non-challenging that players get trained to assume that's how it should be so even slightly ramping up the difficulty causes all kinds of negative player responses. Where it gets weird is in specific challenges and difficulty from older editions.

Sure you can easily crank the CR but things that allowed more nuanced difficulty & hurdles like (Sp/Su/Ex) tags that AoOs hooked into, SR that made spell selection more nuanced than biggest stick vrs legendary resist & any mechanic with a semblance of subjectivity 6-8 encounter expectations. It all adds up & a lot of it just reeks of spiteful pettiness to ensure things don't return as a table specific houserule.

wrt cranking the CR to increase difficulty though that difficulty is largely illusory & players are never actually in any meaningful danger right up until it crosses a razor's edge of a line & crosses into an unwinnable execution/TPK with almost no middle ground

 

[overgeeked]

Sure you can easily crank the CR but things that allowed more nuanced difficulty & hurdles like (M/Su/Ex) tags that AoOs hooked into, SR that made spell selection more nuanced than biggest stick vrs legendary resist & any mechanic with a semblance of subjectivity 6-8 encounter expectations. It all adds up & a lot of it just reeks of spiteful pettiness to ensure things don't return as a table specific houserule.

No idea what the bolded bit means.

I don't know about pettiness, but there is a distinct lack of acceptance of table-based DIY, home-brew, and house rules. If it's something seen on Critical Role, it's fine. If it's a big-game 3PP, it's probably fine. Anything less well-known and forget it. I've watched players walk away from tables when the referee said that they home-brewed monsters. The embrace of RAW as holy writ is mind-boggling.

wrt cranking the CR to increase difficulty though that difficulty is largely illusory & players are never actually in any meaningful danger right up until it crosses a razor's edge of a line & crosses into an unwinnable execution/TPK with almost no middle ground

Yeah. But the options seem to be the binary fine or dead or a death spiral. I'm good with okay until death. I'm just used to it at this point. I just wish long rests weren't superhero levels of regeneration by default. That way you could get something like lingering wounds and players having to think first instead of blindly charging into every fight like they're predestined to win (because the system guarantees that they are...and the players know it).

 

[Lanefan]

No idea what the bolded bit means.

I don't know about pettiness, but there is a distinct lack of acceptance of table-based DIY, home-brew, and house rules. If it's something seen on Critical Role, it's fine. If it's a big-game 3PP, it's probably fine. Anything less well-known and forget it. I've watched players walk away from tables when the referee said that they home-brewed monsters. The embrace of RAW as holy writ is mind-boggling.

RAW-as-holy is the WotC way, though; first promulgated in 3e's a-rule-for-everything design and fine-tuned since even though they've backed off of rule-for-everything in 5e.

I sometimes wonder how the game would have developed had WotC got its big break with something other than rules-crazy M:tG, and then bought TSR/D&D.

 

[tetrasodium]

No idea what the bolded bit means.

back in 3.x abilities all had a (Sp)/(Su)/(Ex) tag that determined if it was magic supernatural or extraordinary that among other things could determine if the ability provoked an AoO

Spoiler: using this bit of the PHB141 Table8-2

action AoO
Use extraordinary ability No
Use skill that takes 1 action Usually
Use spell-like ability Yes
Use supernatural ability No

RAW-as-holy is the WotC way, though; first promulgated in 3e's a-rule-for-everything design and fine-tuned since even though they've backed off of rule-for-everything in 5e.

I sometimes wonder how the game would have developed had WotC got its big break with something other than rules-crazy M:tG, and then bought TSR/D&D.

I dunno, back in the 3.x days the internet was full of homebrew stuff ranging from rules to things like race/class/spell/etc. I think that 5e discarding everything that meaningfully supported subjectively better/worse equipment that wasn't objectively better/best in the process of chasing simplicity at all costs.

 

[Voadam]

back in 3.x abilities all had a (M)/(Su)/(Ex) tag that determined if it was magic supernatural or extraordinary that among other things could determine if the ability provoked an AoO

Spoiler: using this bit of the PHB141 Table8-2

action AoO
Use extraordinary ability No
Use skill that takes 1 action Usually
Use spell-like ability Yes
Use supernatural ability No

It wasn't (M) it was (Sp) for spell-like ability.

For example from the Marilith demon:

Constrict (Ex)
A marilith deals 4d6+13 points of damage with a successful grapple check. The constricted creature must succeed on a DC 27 Fortitude save or lose consciousness for as long as it remains in the coils and for 2d4 rounds thereafter. The save DC is Strength-based.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a marilith must hit with its tail slap attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it succeeds on the grapple check, it can constrict.

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—align weapon, blade barrier (DC 23), magic weapon, project image (DC 23), see invisibility, telekinesis (DC 22), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), unholy aura (DC 25). Caster level 16th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Summon Demon (Sp)
Once per day a marilith can attempt to summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrou, or one nalfeshnee with a 50% chance of success, or one glabrezu or another marilith with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell.

True Seeing (Su)
Mariliths continuously use this ability, as the spell (caster level 16th).