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D&D 5E The tyranny of small numbers

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Is 16 your Str score?
Then how is your attack stat +2?
It might be a misreading of this ability.

"BATTLE READY
3rd-level Battle Smith feature

Your combat training and your experiments with magic have paid off in two ways:

• You gain proficiency with martial weapons.
• When you attack with a magic weapon, you can use your Intelligence modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity modifier, for the attack and damage rolls."
 

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Agametorememberbooks

Explorer
Publisher
The group I run for doesn’t optimize their stats. They take feats/ASIs at about half/half. Having all the numbers perfect doesn’t radically affect players that play as a coordinated unit.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Lots of games (video, ccg, minis, etc) have a "meta" that people determine is considered the optimal setup for play. MMO 's will often have the best gear and skill options for each role, Magic has deck's that are considered top tier, etc. It's natural that such thinking would come to RPGs. The charops board has been a thing for 20+ years.

Of course, RPGs have an advantage that other games don't: a human DM who can tailor a game to a group. What is meta is partially decided by what content your DM is running. Which is why most rpg meta assumes either btb adventure paths or organized play (or both). If you're in a stable group and know your other players, meta is whatever you want.

Even so, off meta isn't bad. Unless you're in serious competitive play, meta is rarely a major factor. Most MMO content can be completed with non-meta builds. You can win Magic games with casual decks. In RPGs, you can make non-optimized characters and still function fine in OP or in the latest Paizo AP.

So I don't give any thoughts to the meta-chasers who demand a 20 prime stat ASAP and only pick the best spells per level. Meta is one way to play, not the only.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
So I don't give any thoughts to the meta-chasers who demand a 20 prime stat ASAP and only pick the best spells per level. Meta is one way to play, not the only.
I think it's important to accept that for some people doing that is a big part of their gameplay fun. THEN after accepting it to design so those players can have it and other deeper/more nuanced styles of optimization bred gameplay have room to flourish in the other 5 stats(or other areas) for players who find fun in those areas instead. Some editions do that better than other editions.
 
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Lots of games (video, ccg, minis, etc) have a "meta" that people determine is considered the optimal setup for play. MMO 's will often have the best gear and skill options for each role, Magic has deck's that are considered top tier, etc. It's natural that such thinking would come to RPGs. The charops board has been a thing for 20+ years.
That's not what the metagame or meta for short is. That's just optimisation.

The metagame or meta for short is the game beyond the mechanics of the game. It's looking at what the other players are doing and using that to influence your plans. It says that if most of your possible opponent's are going rock to be paper even if the paper options in theory have a lower DPS - but the advantage over rock counteracts that.

Metagaming is however a bit of a dirty word in RPG circles and the nearest thing most groups have to a meta is to turn up e.g. with waterbreathing and swim speeds in a pirate campaign.
 

It might be a misreading of this ability.

"BATTLE READY
3rd-level Battle Smith feature

Your combat training and your experiments with magic have paid off in two ways:

• You gain proficiency with martial weapons.
• When you attack with a magic weapon, you can use your Intelligence modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity modifier, for the attack and damage rolls."
But you don´t have to. So it should be +3 to attack.
 


EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think it's important to accept that for some people doing that is a big part of their gameplay fun THEN design so they can have it and other deeper/more nuanced styles of optimization bred gameplay have room to flourish in the other 5 stats(or other areas). Some editions do that better than other editions.
Oh, absolutely. This is why transparent design is such a big deal. By making your design transparent, you enable those players who don't want to dance to the expected tune to see exactly what cost they're paying, if they care to, and thus enable them to mitigate that choice if it suits their fancy. By contrast, an obfuscated game is going to have continuous issues with players not realizing that the thing they've done purely because it sounds cool is directly (albeit subtly) leading to long-term dissatisfaction with the play experience, even though every component of what they're trying to do aligns with the rules and with their personal interests.

And I can say that with confidence because that's exactly what happened to me in 3e. That's where I was before I tried 4e, back either before it existed or when I was (believe it or not) a 4e hater because I'd never played it and a former friend told me it was hot garbage (despite the fact that she, also, had not played it.) Really reading (and playing) 4e was an epiphany. I finally saw how my dissatisfaction with 3.X had had nothing to do with all the things I'd been trying to fix. I've been trying to find just the right homebrew Paladin or PrC option or feat or whatever to make the experience work, and assuming I just wasn't having good luck finding that stuff. It turned out, I wanted a system that actually made good on the kind of game 3e sold itself as being, because 3e manifestly failed to be that game.

That's not what the metagame or meta for short is. That's just optimisation.
Likely a clash of definitions. Optimization is a form of meta-game thinking, in that it is not thinking about playing the game, but rather about how the game is (or should be) played, much as ethics is the study of correct behavior and meta-ethics is the study of how one should think about correct behavior in the first place.

As you say, in the wider sphere of gaming, counting video games, "the meta," with the definite article, refers to a very specific form of meta-game thinking. I.e. strategies which pursue success contingent on empirical (rather than theoretical) chances of success. But such thinking is merely one subset of the broader meaning of "meta-gaming."

The metagame or meta for short is the game beyond the mechanics of the game. It's looking at what the other players are doing and using that to influence your plans. It says that if most of your possible opponent's are going rock to be paper even if the paper options in theory have a lower DPS - but the advantage over rock counteracts that.

Metagaming is however a bit of a dirty word in RPG circles and the nearest thing most groups have to a meta is to turn up e.g. with waterbreathing and swim speeds in a pirate campaign.
Yeah, there's rather an antagonistic perception of meta-game thinking in general (not just pursuing "the meta") in TTRPGs, though I find that that antagonism is spotty and self-contradictory at times. E.g. people love to trot out examples of players who make presumptions about creatures and then get upset when their presumptions are intentionally defied. Yet there is (and has essentially always been) a style of play that expects exactly this, going back to the time of Gygax. E.g. if you know there will be trolls, it is not only correct to try to prepare for them as much as possible, it is a mark of being a superior player that you know that both fire and acid will do the trick. Even if your individual character has never fought trolls and never had any reason to know their weaknesses, you as a player know, and that's what matters. Hence why older editions discouraged players from reading the DMG and MM; to do so would confer a survival advantage without "earning" it through play. (Many people really underestimate just how much old-school D&D was committed to "it is a game, it should be played like a game, other considerations are secondary.")
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Oh, absolutely. This is why transparent design is such a big deal. By making your design transparent, you enable those players who don't want to dance to the expected tune to see exactly what cost they're paying, if they care to, and thus enable them to mitigate that choice if it suits their fancy. By contrast, an obfuscated game is going to have continuous issues with players not realizing that the thing they've done purely because it sounds cool is directly (albeit subtly) leading to long-term dissatisfaction with the play experience, even though every component of what they're trying to do aligns with the rules and with their personal interests.

And I can say that with confidence because that's exactly what happened to me in 3e. That's where I was before I tried 4e, back either before it existed or when I was (believe it or not) a 4e hater because I'd never played it and a former friend told me it was hot garbage (despite the fact that she, also, had not played it.) Really reading (and playing) 4e was an epiphany. I finally saw how my dissatisfaction with 3.X had had nothing to do with all the things I'd been trying to fix. I've been trying to find just the right homebrew Paladin or PrC option or feat or whatever to make the experience work, and assuming I just wasn't having good luck finding that stuff. It turned out, I wanted a system that actually made good on the kind of game 3e sold itself as being, because 3e manifestly failed to be that game.
3.x bent over backwards with ""behind the curtain" sections that went into detail explaining a great many aspects in detail to convey a deeper understanding of a great many functionally complex & nuanced* things. Both the DMG & monster manual had them, I'm sure some of the other books did as well. 2e had some similar content but it was not called out in such a way that allows easy reference. I believe more than a few dragon mag issues had similar guidance on specific topics too. I mostly skipped 4e but 5e's design is anything but transparent despite the simplicity.

*"Obfuscated" is a deliberate effort to hide through complexity & similar, that doesn't mean that any complex or nuanced thing is automatically obfuscated as 5e's simplicity above all design suggests
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I mostly skipped 4e but 5e's design is anything but transparent despite the simplicity.
4e is an extremely transparent game. I recommend giving it a look at some point, even if you don't intend to play it. It's got a lot of very smart design in it.

And yes, I completely agree that 5e obfuscates despite striving for simplicity. It's one of my major frustrations with the system. Particularly because 4e was so good about this.
 

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