D&D General Rant: Sometimes I Hate the D&D Community

[payn]

Looks like this thread is about to turn into a tip toe around your thrown gauntlet discussion, but OP folks hear ya. I have a small list of thing I do to try and make my community experience a better one.

• Learn to suspend your way for sake of discussion. Organized play really helped me with this. You learn a lot from folks if you just listen to them instead of talking over them. If you cant do that, its best to move on then turn the discussion into one you would prefer to have. (Golden rule thinking here, if you are tired of people hating on the things you like, don't act as such in return)
• Choose your words carefully. There is a respectful way to disagree. Preferences are not superior or objective even when it comes to mechanics. They are opinions and its ok to disagree, but the discussion is better when you dont have to win.
• Use the art of the disengage. If you have done the rounds and the back and fourths, just stop responding to that poster. Remember threads are community conversations, not one on ones. Engage with folks that actually want to proceed with a discussion. Dont be afraid to not get the last word!
• Learn the common behaviors of posters. This takes time, of course, but once you recognize a name you know where the discussion is going. A number of folks have an axe to grind and they are going to grind it in every single thread. It's best to make your point succinctly and move on. Some of these axe grinders don't care what you say they just want an opportunity to post their gripes again, again.
• Some folks just want to turd in the punchbowl. Being negative and getting a rise out of people is their buisness. Let the mods handle the trolls.
• Sometimes, you will slip up on these pieces of advice. It's ok, get back on the bike and keep trying to be better for the better community you want us all to have.

Hope that helps improve your experience.

 

[Maxperson]

I know people who would read the post, agree with it, and then turn around and say "but Robots shouldn't be in D&D, and neither should Artificers". There are quite a few people that are still salty about Eberron.

:cough: Psionics and Warlords :cough: Those are the big ones that I see.

I don't think anyone would truthfully, willingly admit that they disagree with this post. And there are also people that will say they agree with it but still try to gatekeep the hobby.

I agree. A major part of this is just the nature of the discussions happening online. More controversial posts will get more attention, and it will appear that unpopular opinions are actually popular (and vice-versa) just due to that fact. A thread that says something simple like "I like Gnomes" is almost definitely going to get less posts and reactions than one about how they dislike/hate them (or think they shouldn't be a part of the game). Which can be hard to remember sometimes, and certainly doesn't help make the online community feel less toxic.

Don't get me wrong, I don't completely hate the online D&D community. If I did, I wouldn't be active on this site. However, sometimes, the stuff that I ranted about in the OP happens and overwhelms the positive parts of the community.

It also kind of sucks when most of those angry comments about how other people are playing badwrongfun are almost always directed at your specific playstyle (optimizing/powergaming, mostly, but also the occasional Eberron-hater or person that declares everything after AD&D 2e as not being "true D&D").

I know this whole rant is like the world's smallest violin, but it still sucks.

Hopefully this will make you feel at least a bit better. People can and do change over time.

Years ago I participated in edition warring against 4e(on the D&D boards when 4e came out). Over time my views shifted and while 4e will never be for me, I don't edition war any longer. Heck, there are even parts of 4e(can't remember the specifics any longer since I don't play it) that I liked.

Years ago I would tell people who changed the game too much in my opinion that they weren't playing D&D or suggested that they go play a different game. Over time and because of discussion on the topics, my view changed and now I argue strong against saying those things.

Years ago I argued that optimizing wasn't roleplaying. Over time, due to discussions on the topic, my view shifted and now I argue strongly that it is 1) roleplaying and 2) can be mixed with other styles of play.

It may not seem like in the moment of these discussions, but people can and do shift views over time. It can be very hard to notice, because rarely will the shift happen and be acknowledged in the middle of the thread. Usually it will happen after the thread has concluded and the person has had time to cool off and think about things. Then the next time it comes up their arguments will have shifted away from the toxic aspects and into a different direction. By the time the new thread happens, though, we are very unlikely to remember their exact position and notice how it has changed, and they probably aren't going to say, "Hey, I was toxic before, but look how my position changed."

Anyway, I hope that helped.

 

[This Effin’ GM]

I think your first mistake is calling it a community, there is no "community".

I respectfully disagree with this assertion

• Learn to suspend your way for sake of discussion. Organized play really helped me with this. You learn a lot from folks if you just listen to them instead of talking over them. If you cant do that, its best to move on then turn the discussion into one you would prefer to have. (Golden rule thinking here, if you are tired of people hating on the things you like, don't act as such in return)
• Choose your words carefully. There is a respectful way to disagree. Preferences are not superior or objective even when it comes to mechanics. They are opinions and its ok to disagree, but the discussion is better when you dont have to win.
• Use the art of the disengage. If you have done the rounds and the back and fourths, just stop responding to that poster. Remember threads are community conversations, not one on ones. Engage with folks that actually want to proceed with a discussion. Dont be afraid to not get the last word!
• Learn the common behaviors of posters. This takes time, of course, but once you recognize a name you know where the discussion is going. A number of folks have an axe to grind and they are going to grind it in every single thread. It's best to make your point succinctly and move on. Some of these axe grinders don't care what you say they just want an opportunity to post their gripes again, again.
• Some folks just want to turd in the punchbowl. Being negative and getting a rise out of people is their buisness. Let the mods handle the trolls.

I respectfully agree with this assertion. Those last two were hard lessons for me

 

[BookTenTiger]

Looks like this thread is about to turn into a tip toe around your thrown gauntlet discussion, but OP folks hear ya. I have a small list of thing I do to try and make my community experience a better one.

• Learn to suspend your way for sake of discussion. Organized play really helped me with this. You learn a lot from folks if you just listen to them instead of talking over them. If you cant do that, its best to move on then turn the discussion into one you would prefer to have. (Golden rule thinking here, if you are tired of people hating on the things you like, don't act as such in return)
• Choose your words carefully. There is a respectful way to disagree. Preferences are not superior or objective even when it comes to mechanics. They are opinions and its ok to disagree, but the discussion is better when you dont have to win.
• Use the art of the disengage. If you have done the rounds and the back and fourths, just stop responding to that poster. Remember threads are community conversations, not one on ones. Engage with folks that actually want to proceed with a discussion. Dont be afraid to not get the last word!
• Learn the common behaviors of posters. This takes time, of course, but once you recognize a name you know where the discussion is going. A number of folks have an axe to grind and they are going to grind it in every single thread. It's best to make your point succinctly and move on. Some of these axe grinders don't care what you say they just want an opportunity to post their gripes again, again.
• Some folks just want to turd in the punchbowl. Being negative and getting a rise out of people is their buisness. Let the mods handle the trolls.

Hope that helps improve your experience.

Yep yep yep yep yep.

There have been a number of posts saying something to the effect of "This is just the way communities are, or this is just how online discussion is..." but in my opinion, it doesn't need to be! I personally really make an effort to participate in the same way I would prefer others interact with me.

I try to follow three guiding principals:

1) Don't Yuck My Yum. If someone likes to play D&D one way, and I like another way... I'm not going to spend my time and energy talking about how much I don't like their way of playing D&D. Even if it's my opinion. It's the same as truffle oil... lots of people love truffle oil, and I don't. But if you're eating truffle fries, I'm not going to stand there telling you how much I don't like truffle fries. It's going to ruin your experience of eating them!

2) Ask for Clarification. Sometimes I assume a poster is making some big, bold, grievous statement, and my fingertips start to burn with the desire to post a long, cutting reply... but instead I ask them to clarify. And sometimes I'm right in my assumptions, and sometimes I'm wrong. But either way it helps me take a breath, take a break, and not post under the influence of strong emotion.

3) Reply When I Agree. I'm not a big fan of the "Like" reaction because I think it leads to a pattern in which the only posts are disagreements. When I agree with someone's post, I could just click Like... but more and more I'm trying to actually reply, even if all I have to say is "I agree." I just want to see more agreement posts, so I'm making an effort myself.

 

[TwoSix]

Yea, I know. But you wouldn't believe how often people get offended by someone expressing their opinion on an aspect of the game. (That has nothing to do with person A telling person B that their play style is wrong)

It's one thing to logically understand that someone hating something you really love has no impact on you, and another to have no emotional reaction to that same fact.

Reading slams on something you care about generally causes irritation, no matter how much we understand everyone is equally entitled to their opinions and preferences. And that irritation just slowly builds until even mild-mannered posters occasionally will lash out in defense.

Emotional reactions and argument are the price we pay for the ability to have open discourse about our likes and dislikes.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I don't want to get political (even though that is the easiest one to point out here in states) so I will use my other hobby...

Hasbro changed the GI Joe builds. The new ones are more articulate and better designed... but for people who collected the old ones they are so out of scale it is like standing an oger mini next to a human mini and saying they are the same. So there is a not insignificant amount of push for the old scale to return (so we can make our army diorama like setups with new and old) and you would think the 3 3/4 over 5 would be easy enough BUT there is a middle ground when they were more like 4... and id you use THOSE or not is an issue... but WAIT there are MORE factions... see even in the 80's 90's there are diffrences. and I can find factions (some big some small) that have a cut off of almost every year. "Nothing after '87 fits with the astatic"

Me, I collect all of the joe stuff... but I separate my O ring from my modern... with that distinction, not 'classic' vs 'new' or 'pre 92 and post 92' just o ring and non oring... and even THAT gets me yelled at by some as 'not a true joe fan'

right before COvid lockdowns started back at the end of 2019 I went to a GI Joe Con, and I had bought almost $100 worth of O ring figures that we call army builders (generic troops with no names just to fill out ranks) but I also bought a Ninja force oring figure of a CObra Ninja with a name (slice if it matters) and I had someone read me the riot act about how the 94 Joes shouldn't be mixed with the 200X joe army builders that were throw backs to the orginal 80's line when it was a real military... and this guy and I had hours before talked about how we wished Hasbro would bring back O ring figures.

"If your not 100% with me 100% of the time you are the enemy" is WAY too common

dear gods do I know this the only reason my preferred lines of collectables are not at endless civil war is that they are continued so everone is madder at the company instead.

:cough: Psionics and Warlords :cough: Those are the big ones that I see.

Hopefully this will make you feel at least a bit better. People can and do change over time.

Years ago I participated in edition warring against 4e(on the D&D boards when 4e came out). Over time my views shifted and while 4e will never be for me, I don't edition war any longer. Heck, there are even parts of 4e(can't remember the specifics any longer since I don't play it) that I liked.

Years ago I would tell people who changed the game too much in my opinion that they weren't playing D&D or suggested that they go play a different game. Over time and because of discussion on the topics, my view changed and now I argue strong against saying those things.

Years ago I argued that optimizing wasn't roleplaying. Over time, due to discussions on the topic, my view shifted and now I argue strongly that it is 1) roleplaying and 2) can be mixed with other styles of play.

It may not seem like in the moment of these discussions, but people can and do shift views over time. It can be very hard to notice, because rarely will the shift happen and be acknowledged in the middle of the thread. Usually it will happen after the thread has concluded and the person has had time to cool off and think about things. Then the next time it comes up their arguments will have shifted away from the toxic aspects and into a different direction. By the time the new thread happens, though, we are very unlikely to remember their exact position and notice how it has changed, and they probably aren't going to say, "Hey, I was toxic before, but look how my position changed."

Anyway, I hope that helped.

I would love a full psionic caster and warlord sounds good if difficult to do
but I am an example I went from having no love for the small races to at least seeing them as a reasonable niche if one I feel is often done badly.

 

[Maxperson]

I think your first mistake is calling it a community, there is no "community". There are people who bought a game, like Monopoly or Chess and have an opinion about the game, and prefer the version they got when there were kids. Mine was London based Monopoly with Mayfair the most the expensive square.

There are people who can't imagine other people playing the game in any way except the way they play it.

Then we have the Matt Mercer effect which was to bring in the LA crowd looking for fame and fortune and profit from celebrity streams.

And then you have the people trying to make some cash selling stuff around the game. They will turn on each other as soon as they smell blood.

But it ain't a community.

I disagree. It is a community. Communities don't have to agree about everything. When I meet someone and find out that they play D&D or vice versa, there is an instant comradery that isn't present when I find out that someone plays Chess or Monopoly, or any board game really. We start talking about characters and experiences. There are many more D&D topics spoken about in much greater depth online than say Monopoly.

The community engendered by D&D is every bit as strong as that of the community that I live in(I don't know 99.99% or more of the folks who live in my community and talk to them less) and probably stronger.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I disagree. It is a community. Communities don't have to agree about everything. When I meet someone and find out that they play D&D or vice versa, there is an instant comradery that isn't present when I find out that someone plays Chess or Monopoly, or any board game really.

I would disagree with some of this... where I can't imagine a 'Monopoly Community' there is a chess one... and I even am a part of some small boardgame ones (risk, and pandamic)

We start talking about characters and experiences. There are many more topics spoken about in much greater depth online. The community engendered by D&D is every bit as strong as that of the community that I live in(I don't know 99.99% or more of the folks who live in my community and talk to them less) and probably stronger.

and when we are not being jerks this even Transends editions. I can tell a cool story about a game I played in 96 and even if some words sound weird (wait what is Thac0?) a player that started in 2020 with 5e can relate.

in fact I bet I could tell 2 stories of awesome game moments 1 from 4e and 1 from 2e and if I leave out a few mechanics (not really needed for the stories anyway) they could have happened in 5e, 3e, or 1e too.

 

[Oofta]

It does sometimes feel like some people are looking for an excuse to be angry. If someone says

• "I don't care for X" the response is "Why do you hate X?"
• "I like the way Y works" the response is "Why are you trying to shout down improvements!"
• Try to back out of a discussion? Get response "So you're just going to declare victory?"
• State that our opinions just differ and try to move on? "You just won't admit you're wrong!"

I will be the first to admit I'm far from perfect and I'm an opinionated SOB. But it's just a game. In addition, it's a really, really big tent. People can have different perspectives and opinions, we can disagree without that disagreement being an attack.

We can have different styles and things we like and dislike. My DMing style, my gaming group's style may not work for you. That's fine, I long ago accepted that when I DM I'm not going to please everyone. It's the same with topics that come up here. I think that's awesome that people have different ways of playing, different preferences. Whether you do straight up dungeon crawls or spend hours on shopping trips, as long a you're having fun you're doing it right.

 

[Burnside]

It's one thing to logically understand that someone hating something you really love has no impact on you, and another to have no emotional reaction to that same fact.

Reading slams on something you care about generally causes irritation, no matter how much we understand everyone is equally entitled to their opinions and preferences. And that irritation just slowly builds until even mild-mannered posters occasionally will lash out in defense.

Emotional reactions and argument are the price we pay for the ability to have open discourse about our likes and dislikes.

I was all set to reply to this asserting that I don't take it personally when people criticize stuff I like. I am in theater and also a writer and critics review my stuff in both mediums, and I have of course been turned down for roles as an actor or had reviewers or editors express unflattering takes on stuff I've written or performed, and 95% of the time I just don't internalize it as an attack on me that I need to refute.

BUT I realized that I do take personally when others express socio-political views that oppose my own, and I do feel compelled to express disagreement because I guess on some level I do feel like those views can actually attack or affect me personally, or people I care about. And when socio-political issues bleed into D&D, that's when I have the hardest time stifling a response. Long story short, if people are complaining that modern D&D is too "woke" in various ways, then I have an urge to explain why I vehemently disagree with them. So clearly I am as susceptible to this as others.

But if it's just a matter of "I love Lost Mine of Phandelver and this person thinks it's bland" then I literally don't care and don't feel the need to defend something that's purely a matter of taste.

I would also say - I would actually be more likely to voice disagreement about something in a well-moderated forum like this one where the user base is generally sane and reasonable. I would never for a second bother with it on Twitter, for example. Life is too short for that.