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D&D General Why Do People Hate Gnomes?

If I was being snarky, I'd say somethink like, "What? I couldn't hear you over the sound of how relevant 1984 continues to be!" We still use phrases like thought police and big brother and concern over a loss of individual freedom and surveillance continues to be relevant in 2022. Just because it's not realistic doesn't mean it's not relevant.
Exactly. Nineteen Eighty-Four and Brave New World were never meant to be tales that hold up to a standard of "this, exactly as depicted, could actually happen to your real country in 40 years." They were meant to be shocking, plausible, and ignoring the little details like how it came to be. And in context this wasn't weird or ridiculous; it was part of the genre that inspired it,  utopian fiction, where the Greek pun is that the author wants to talk about eutopia (good-place) but instead talks about utopia (no-place, e.g. a place that doesn't, or can't, exist), with Thomas More's Utopia being the ur-example very intentionally invoking this and other puns and wordplay (like the river Anyder, meaning "no-water.")

Of course, nowadays, we expect there to be more rigor about how and why the dystopia comes into being. The stark "scare 'em straight" warning isn't enough anymore. Which shouldn't surprise anyone either, for many reasons (desensitization, distance from atrocities and horrors in either time or space or both, increasing radicalization, etc.) You would probably see something similar in nuclear fiction if the various arms limitation treaties hadn't passed, with people having to be more specific about how and why the nuclear apocalypse happened rather than leaving it completely unexplained as in stories like There Will Come Soft Rains.

Both Brave New World and It can’t happen here deal with dystopias that follow from hyper-capitalism and populism, but are not taught in schools because 1984 is so transcendent in its brilliance. Allegedly
Brave New World was required reading in my high school, and was a key part of the essay question on my SAT (specifically the question was about the Ford quote "history is bunk" and what effects remembering, forgetting, or rewriting history has on society. I compared and contrasted the two books, and Animal Farm as well, since its inability to preserve the intent and value of its rules was a major part of its undoing, as the animals couldn't stop the pigs from rewriting their history.) I graduated in the mid-2000s. That reading list had been in place since at least 2001.

And I would still say Nineteen Eighty-Four is still relevant, in part because it shows the guts of the propaganda machine, and the exploitation of ordinary folks' emotional responses in order to maintain fervor and obedience. Brave New World leans too heavily into the "everyone can be blissed out all the time" angle. It was quite prescient in terms of the potential for biological engineering (consisting, as it did, of technologies that completely predate genetic engineering) and of a somewhat "softer," more plush, "friendly" totalitarianism/exploitation. But you can't tell me that the Two Minutes' Hate is less realistic than getting everyone to (exclusively) safely use psychologically-addictive compounds with lethal overdose potential in a world where opioid addiction is a crippling problem and Fox News exists. Because, remember, that's what kills Linda (the mother of John the "Savage," who had gotten disconnected from the engineered society she came from); she overdoses on soma because she's full of shame over having actually given birth to John and regret over not having the socialite life she's supposed to have.

Both books remain relevant. One shows us a more gentle/plausible approach, though BNW still features the classic "handwave the origin" non-explanation you see in most dystopian fiction, with Mond making some airy-fairy comments about gassing museums and other horrific terrorist attacks that apparently just eventually succeeded at making people obedient and neglectful. The other shows a far less plausible approach, but one that emphasizes various tools and techniques that are absolutely real and require our attention today (consider the very recent rise of the term "alternative facts," or the exploitation of the phrase "fake news" to discredit any and all reports which might make someone look bad.) And both books fail to touch on things that should be part of any techno-dystopia fiction today, like people willingly giving away some of their deepest innermost secrets in order to have an easier time posting photos to the Internet, or companies using horrifically predatory, calculated psychological manipulation in order to get people (particularly children) to spend more money on their mobile games. (Perhaps It can't happen here touches on these, I haven't read that one, or at least I don't remember doing so. It would be remarkably, I'd say shockingly prescient if it did so, given how few people predicted the incredible rise and influence the Internet would have. Reading a synopsis doesn't suggest this, though it has other prescient bits, e.g. "strong-man with big, empty promises" leaders, thinking of semi-recent US leadership as well Putin's invasion of Ukraine.)

"But I've never heard of them"

So? They exist whether or not you've ever heard of them or not.
Sure. But if most people haven't heard of them, they aren't going to have impact. That's the problem. That's why "man on the street" opinions are useful. (For an appropriate choice of street, anyway.) They tell you what has gotten a broad foothold. Broad footholds aren't the end-all, be-all, as demonstrated by dragonborn; new developments happen. But, and this is the really unfortunate thing, you can cite names and works until Kingdom come, if they aren't widely-known, they aren't going to have impact right now. They might develop impact over time. Or they might fade into total obscurity. Almost everyone knows about Tarzan, and has read (or, more likely, seen) some version of that story, and even parodies thereof (e.g. George of the Jungle.) How many know of Pellucidar, despite that series being written by the same author, Edgar Rice Burroughs? (One book apparently even features a Tarzan crossover!) Everyone knows Shakespeare, his common plays are everywhere (Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet, Othello, King Lear, Richard III, MacBeth, The Merchant of Venice, Julius Caesar, A Midsummer Night's Dream, The Tempest, etc., all of which I read in high school), but his uncommon plays have almost no cultural impact today, e.g. Troilus and Cressida, Pericles, or Titus Andronicus (the last of which is rarely performed today due to featuring...things that genuinely warranr trigger warnings, though the play was very popular in Shakespeare's lifetime.)

I sincerely hope that the (quite substantial) list of works you've mentioned that feature well-written gnomes becomes more popular, gains more traction, and rehabilitates them conceptually and mechanically for D&D play. That would be genuinely great. But, at least for the time being, you're going to be struggling against the massive headwind of World of Warcraft and other, widely-known, influential works in the fantasy-gaming space that use the crappy, Flanderized version of gnomes. That is not a knock against gnomes in the absolute; it is a pragmatic recognition that there is a gap between what you want to see and what is actually plausible in the short term.
 
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should we bring it back to the topic of gnomes?
where should gnomes go if they are in any form to stick around?

Thinking in terms of settings? They just need to be written thoughtfully into the settings, like every other race we end up keeping and putting in the settings.

Niche-wise? I'd say we need to think more about what technology means in DnD. We are fine with golems, a lot of people are fine with clockwork enemies. Alchemy is all over the place. I think we just need to end up making things slightly more accurate to a more renaissance period. People had clocks in major cities. Somebody had to build those drawbridges. People are studying and mapping the stars, then making Orreries to predict the next few decades of star movement, eclipses, ect.

"That's wizard stuff?" Fine. Gnomes are archetypical wizards anyways. And I think once that happens, then you can have a bit more depth. Sure, some gnomes are Da Vinci, designing flying machines. Others are designing domes. Sure, Dwarves build sturdier, but gnomes are cheaper and can be convinced to build artistically. And people love their gothic buildings and flying buttresses.
 

Sure. But if most people haven't heard of them, they aren't going to have impact. That's the problem. That's why "man on the street" opinions are useful. (For an appropriate choice of street, anyway.) They tell you what has gotten a broad foothold. Broad footholds aren't the end-all, be-all, as demonstrated by dragonborn; new developments happen. But, and this is the really unfortunate thing, you can cite names and works until Kingdom come, if they aren't widely-known, they aren't going to have impact right now. They might develop impact over time. Or they might fade into total obscurity. Almost everyone knows about Tarzan, and has read (or, more likely, seen) some version of that story, and even parodies thereof (e.g. George of the Jungle.) How many know of Pellucidar, despite that series being written by the same author, Edgar Rice Burroughs? (One book apparently even features a Tarzan crossover!) Everyone knows Shakespeare, his common plays are everywhere (Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet, Othello, King Lear, Richard III, MacBeth, The Merchant of Venice, Julius Caesar, A Midsummer Night's Dream, The Tempest, etc., all of which I read in high school), but his uncommon plays have almost no cultural impact today, e.g. Troilus and Cressida, Pericles, or Titus Andronicus (the last of which is rarely performed today due to featuring...things that genuinely warranr trigger warnings, though the play was very popular in Shakespeare's lifetime.)

I sincerely hope that the (quite substantial) list of works you've mentioned that feature well-written gnomes becomes more popular, gains more traction, and rehabilitates them conceptually and mechanically for D&D play. That would be genuinely great. But, at least for the time being, you're going to be struggling against the massive headwind of World of Warcraft and other, widely-known, influential works in the fantasy-gaming space that use the crappy, Flanderized version of gnomes. That is not a knock against gnomes in the absolute; it is a pragmatic recognition that there is a gap between what you want to see and what is actually plausible in the short term.

I think where we are disagreeing is a matter of scale. Sure, the fantasy DnD crowd at large may not of heard of these books. However, the series "Everybody Loves Large Chests" has over 60,000 reviews on Audible. Multiple of the novels have 2,000 reviews, and Royal Road has 6,000. Sure, 80,000 (approximate) people aren't a lot. You can't gain pop culture relevance with fewer than 10 million people.

But is affecting 80 thousand people really "zero impact"?

My Hero Academia doesn't have nearly the impact on the world that Superman and Spider-Man have. Does that mean that My Hero Academia hasn't had ANY impact on how Superhero societies may be portrayed in the future? I doubt that. I think it will affect things going forward.


But, I wasn't asked to provide works that have already revolutionized and had a pop culture impact. I was asked if fiction involving gnomes even existed. It does. And following up proof that it exists with "I haven't heard of it"... doesn't invalidate anything. They exist. They are changing how people who encounter them think about the characters. And just because no one has heard of them yet, doesn't mean anything.

After all, I've stumped many a classroom even today asking "who is David Arneson" or "Who is Larry Elmore". People have never heard of them. Doesn't mean they didn't have an impact.
 

Sure, but as long as you accept Object Permanence is a thing, then you have to accept that objects you haven't seen exist. I've never seen Mount Fuji. I accept that Mount Fuji exists. Philosophy that tries to tell me Mount Fuji doesn't exist because I haven't seen it is bringing into question far more than I am willing to question.
Putting a lot of importance into a couple of jokes, friend.
 



In my opinion, they should be subclasses of dwarves. They could be the "magical" branch of that particular family tree.
I thought the evil ones also had the gimmick? they are likely to lose evil assuming anyone even cares it is always the elves that people care about.
secondly, that does not fix them only moves where the problem is not where we should take the gnome's design conceptually.
 

I thought the evil ones also had the gimmick? they are likely to lose evil assuming anyone even cares it is always the elves that people care about.
secondly, that does not fix them only moves where the problem is not where we should take the gnome's design conceptually.
Duergar are all psychic because of mind flayers, but there’s room for nonevil magical dwarves too.
 


I literally provided the names, series, author and publication dates. I'm pretty sure I don't need to read it for you as well.

"But I've never heard of them"

So? They exist whether or not you've ever heard of them or not.

Sure. A Kindle only digital publication that hasn’t actually been in print is an excellent example of the penetration of the market for gnomes in literature.

I mean please, come on. Seriously? This is your example for go to literary examples of gnomes? Some unknown two dollar Kindle book? Oh wait, it’s barely a novel. It’s a novella at 189 pages.

I don’t think you are quite making the slam dunk you think you are.

I mean good grief. You compare it to My Hero Academia, a series with millions of viewers for the anime, one of the top watched on Netflix here in Japan. Routinely gets mentioned in Geek media and the like as well.

Or Elmore? Seriously? Someone who has sold millions of copies of his art?

There’s a very large difference in scale here.
 
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