D&D 5E Toll the Chest

[Paul Farquhar]

Yeah, I figured something regularly described as "bolts of force" from 3e onward (2e?) should be able to break things. Having some standards from 3e for the number of hp objects could have helped matters there.

Nah, those shackles where clearly living creatures! The spell proved it.


(To see how it could work, look at the PPGs in Babylon 5, that damage flesh, but do minimal damage to the hull.)

 

[Hriston]

You've just made it so that everyone is always surprised. If you can't notice a threat before the threating act which triggers initiative, then there is no chance to notice and avoid the surprise regardless of any stealth/perception rolls. If neither side is bothering to be stealthy, then they see and hear each other, but since there are no hostile acts yet, nobody has noticed a threat.

This reads like you're intentionally misunderstanding me, but perhaps there's been some miscommunication, so I'll attempt to clarify in the hope that you're posting in good faith. Of course you can notice a creature before an action declaration is made that will start combat. When combat starts, creatures on both sides are revealed as threats to one another, but those creatures might have been noticed before the commencement of hostilities. Does that make sense to you?

It's pretty clear that the surprise rules are talking about potential threats and that you can only avoid surprise if you notice said potential threat before initiative is rolled. That would of course include chests which are all potential threats.

You've just made it so that no one is ever surprised unless they're deprived of all senses. Potentially, everything is a threat. Fortunately, the surprise rules are only concerned with actual threats you end up in combat with.

That doesn't matter. Under your definition it has not noticed a threat. It has only noticed a group of people.

A group of people who have been revealed as threats due to the stated intention to cause harm. Again, this reads as intentional misunderstanding on your part.

Nope. Since it can't tell the difference between a spell and someone speaking Portuguese, having an animated conversation with his hands, it has not noticed a threat and would automatically be surprised.

But it has noticed the threat. The OP makes no mention of the cleric trying to hide.

 

[Maxperson]

This reads like you're intentionally misunderstanding me, but perhaps there's been some miscommunication, so I'll attempt to clarify in the hope that you're posting in good faith. Of course you can notice a creature before an action declaration is made that will start combat. When combat starts, creatures on both sides are revealed as threats to one another, but those creatures might have been noticed before the commencement of hostilities. Does that make sense to you?

It sounds like you didn't understand me actually

"Of course you can notice a creature before an action declaration is made that will start combat." Agreed and is what I said.

"When combat starts both sides are revealed as threats to one another, but those creatures might have been noticed before the commencement of hostilities." This is also what I said.

What you don't seem to be understanding is where surprise comes in. Surprise happens when you fail to notice a threat. According to what you just said, you can't notice a threat until combat starts, which means both sides are automatically always surprised.

According to RAW, you can notice threats before combat starts AND before any threatening action occurs. Initiative happens AFTER surprise is determined. The order of things is

1. Determine Surprise
2. Establish Positions
3. Roll Initiative.

For the above to be true, you must be noticing potential threats, because two groups wandering into each other are not engaging in any active threatening. For those two groups to be able to surprise one another, they have to reacting to the potential threat of the other side. If neither side is being stealthy, both notice the potential threats and are not surprised. If one side is sneaking, the side that doesn't notice the potential threat is surprised. If both are sneaking, they surprise each other.

You've just made it so that no one is ever surprised unless they're deprived of all senses. Potentially, everything is a threat. Fortunately, the surprise rules are only concerned with actual threats you end up in combat with.

No, this is false. I made it so that the potential threat actually has to be unnoticed to get surprised............................like RAW specifies. If the goblins are sneaking down the hallway and turn the corner into the non-sneaking PCs, and the PCs fail perception, they are surprised. And vice versa.

A group of people who have been revealed as threats due to the stated intention to cause harm.

Until the casting, there was no stated intention to cause harm. So the Mimic only saw a group of people. Once the casting starts, which the Mimic has no clue is hostile, it is surprised for failing to notice a threat. According to what you have written.

Nothing in RAW says that a creature that has no idea a spell is being cast will automatically know it's a hostile action/threat, let alone retroactively notice the party was a threat before the casting of the spell and not be surprised.

The only way it can notice the party as a threat in time, is if it notices potential threats. Otherwise it has no chance to avoid surprise.

 

[Hriston]

And if they see an ordinary chest all they know is that it is indistinguishable from a mimic. That is as far as their awareness extends to ordinary chests.

D&D works like this: The DM narrates what the PCs see, then the players tell the DM how their characters react. If the players say (or imply) that they think something is a threat then they are not surprised if it attacks them.

That's not what the surprise rules say. They don't say anything about what the players think. Only if a character or monster actually notices, i.e. becomes aware of, a threat is it not surprised.

If they see a troll, they do not know it is a threat, it could be a friendly troll. A hostile troll is indistinguishable from a friendly troll.

Right, but they are aware of the troll because they see it. If combat starts with the troll, then the troll was a threat.

All that stuff about "perceiving a threat" is about enemies that are hidden from view. It has nothing to do with knowing if something is dangerous or not.

Correct.

A player character, Psycho McMurdurhobo, sees a commoner. He does not perceive a threat, because the commoner is not a threat. Psycho pulls out his axe and swings it at the commoner. Is Psycho surprised?

Who said the commoner is not a threat? A commoner can hit with its club and do damage. That's a threat.

 

[Imaculata]

The chest is in fact a creature, so I would rule that it works. It is a clever way to check for mimics. Shooting the chest with an arrow would also have worked.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

They don't say anything about what the players think.

They say "The DM decides". The DM makes that judgment based on what the players say their characters are doing.

Right, but they are aware of the troll because they see it. If combat starts with the troll, then the troll was a threat.

But, according to you, it has surprise, since the players did not know it was a threat until combat started. And is also surprised, since it did not know the players where a threat until combat started.

Who said the commoner is not a threat? A commoner can hit with its club and do damage. That's a threat.

The commoner is unarmed. It does not have a club. It is also a six-month-old baby. It is not a threat.

The truth is 5e does not have a rule for "is a threat"/"is not a threat". It's not a key word driven game, it is a plain English game, and the word "threat" is used in its plain English sense. The only part of that sentence that matters is "perceived", which means "not hidden or invisible".

The only exception is the Spanish Inquisition. Since no one expects them, they always have surprise. And ruthless efficiency.

 

[Maxperson]

That's not what the surprise rules say. They don't say anything about what the players think. Only if a character or monster actually notices, i.e. becomes aware of, a threat is it not surprised.

Becomes aware of a potential threat. The game rules treat potential threats as threats, because if it didn't, no monster that isn't being aggressive would be a threat the party is aware of, even if standing right in front of them.

Right, but they are aware of the troll because they see it. If combat starts with the troll, then the troll was a threat.

If combat starts it was a threat, but under this interpretation they were not aware of a threat before hand, which means they would be surprised.

Who said the commoner is not a threat? A commoner can hit with its club and do damage. That's a threat.

Not unless it's attacking with it. Otherwise it's a non-threat commoner.

 

[Hriston]

It sounds like you didn't understand me actually

"Of course you can notice a creature before an action declaration is made that will start combat." Agreed and is what I said.

"When combat starts both sides are revealed as threats to one another, but those creatures might have been noticed before the commencement of hostilities." This is also what I said.

What you don't seem to be understanding is where surprise comes in. Surprise happens when you fail to notice a threat. According to what you just said, you can't notice a threat until combat starts, which means both sides are automatically always surprised.

Again, you're misunderstanding me if that's what you think I said. That actually contradicts both of my statements you just quoted and with which you agreed. I think what you're talking about is that surprise is determined at the start of combat. Once an action is declared that requires in-combat resolution, the first thing the DM needs to do is determine if any of the participants have not noticed at least one of the participants on the other side. The actual noticing may have happened some time before that. I hope that clears things up for you.

According to RAW, you can notice threats before combat starts AND before any threatening action occurs. Initiative happens AFTER surprise is determined. The order of things is

1. Determine Surprise
2. Establish Positions
3. Roll Initiative.

For the above to be true, you must be noticing potential threats, because two groups wandering into each other are not engaging in any active threatening. For those two groups to be able to surprise one another, they have to reacting to the potential threat of the other side. If neither side is being stealthy, both notice the potential threats and are not surprised. If one side is sneaking, the side that doesn't notice the potential threat is surprised. If both are sneaking, they surprise each other.

What are you trying to say here that you think I don't understand?

No, this is false. I made it so that the potential threat actually has to be unnoticed to get surprised............................like RAW specifies. If the goblins are sneaking down the hallway and turn the corner into the non-sneaking PCs, and the PCs fail perception, they are surprised. And vice versa.

The walls of the dungeon could be a threat, so if the PCs notice the walls, they can't be surprised by the goblins.

Until the casting, there was no stated intention to cause harm. So the Mimic only saw a group of people. Once the casting starts, which the Mimic has no clue is hostile, it is surprised for failing to notice a threat. According to what you have written.

Nothing in RAW says that a creature that has no idea a spell is being cast will automatically know it's a hostile action/threat, let alone retroactively notice the party was a threat before the casting of the spell and not be surprised.

The only way it can notice the party as a threat in time, is if it notices potential threats. Otherwise it has no chance to avoid surprise.

It's bizarre that you continue to fail to understand my actual position. I trust this isn't deliberate on your part, so I'm going to go through the steps of play as I see this encounter playing out to give you a chance to catch up in your understanding of what I'm actually saying:

1. The party, not trying to be stealthy as they travel, comes within sighting distance of the mimic which notices them immediately.​

2. Because the mimic is trying to use its False Appearance ability, the DM determines whether or not it succeeds at remaining motionless. Of course, the DM can just decide it succeeds, but I would have it make a Dexterity (Stealth) check contested by the passive Perception scores of any members of the party who are keeping watch for hidden threats. Either way, according to the scenario described in the OP, it succeeds, and the DM describes to the players only that the party sees what looks to be an ordinary chest.​

3. The players, despite any suspicions they may have about the "chest", state that the party enters the room, approaching within 15 feet (one move) of the mimic.​

4. The player of the cleric states they cast toll the dead at the "chest".​

5. Because combat is beginning in order to resolve the cleric's action, the DM determines who might be surprised. Because the party was not trying to be stealthy, the mimic noticed them in Step 1 and is not surprised. Because the mimic succeeded in using its False Appearance ability in Step 2, the party did not notice the mimic, and they are surprised.​

6. The DM figures out where everyone is in relation to each other and to the mimic.​

7. The DM calls for initiative, which is rolled by all the participants.​

8. In round one, the party is surprised on their turns (see Step 5), and the mimic moves in and attacks them.​

9. In round two, all the participants take their turns in initiative order, including the cleric who can now cast the spell they declared in Step 4 at the mimic.​

I hope that clears things up a little.

 

[Hriston]

They say "The DM decides". The DM makes that judgment based on what the players say their characters are doing.

Look, we're not talking about the way you run your game. You can do what you want. The rules for surprise say nothing about the DM making that determination based on the players saying or implying their characters think something is a threat. It can be based on the players saying whether or not their characters are using stealth and whether or not they're keeping watch for hidden threats, but whether they choose to regard something as a threat is just not present in the text.

But, according to you, it has surprise, since the players did not know it was a threat until combat started. And is also surprised, since it did not know the players where a threat until combat started.

I think you (and possibly @Maxperson) are reading "notice a threat" as "notice as a threat". The word as isn't there. You can notice a threat without knowing it's a threat. You just need to become aware of whatever the threat is. In this case, it sounds like both the players and the troll are aware of each other, so what you said is not according to me.

The commoner is unarmed. It does not have a club. It is also a six-month-old baby. It is not a threat.

Okay, then no need for combat rules if it can't fight back.

The truth is 5e does not have a rule for "is a threat"/"is not a threat". It's not a key word driven game, it is a plain English game, and the word "threat" is used in its plain English sense. The only part of that sentence that matters is "perceived", which means "not hidden or invisible".

What sentence? I don't see the word perceived anywhere in the surprise rules. I think you mean notice which, as I said up-thread, I think also uses its plain English meaning, i.e. "become aware of". I think the word threat in the surprise rules refers to the combat participants.

The only exception is the Spanish Inquisition. Since no one expects them, they always have surprise. And ruthless efficiency.

And an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

And nice red uniforms.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Look, we're not talking about the way you run your game. You can do what you want.

And you can run the game how you want. However, it smacks at bad faith DMing to me, and if I was a player I would feel extremely aggrieved if the DM ruled that I was surprised by a monster I had sussed out.

It's a matter of player agency: you are saying it doesn't matter what decisions the players make; the trap is going to go off no matter what you do.

What sentence? I don't see the word perceived anywhere in the surprise rules. I think you mean notice which, as I said up-thread, I think also uses its plain English meaning, i.e. "become aware of". I think the word threat in the surprise rules refers to the combat participants.

That's the point. 5e does not use keywords, so it doesn't matter if it says "notice a threat", "perceive and enemy", "spot a bogy" or whatever. They are all synonyms.