D&D 5E Toll the Chest

[Imaculata]

If a player thinks a chest "might" be a mimic, and uses a spell on it to find out, I would not rule that they are surprised. They clearly expected a mimic, and they can clearly see the suspected mimic. They are ready for it to be a mimic, which in my book is the exact opposite of being surprised.

 

[DND_Reborn]

How would you resolve this as DM?

I roll the save for the mimic. If it saves, there is no damage and the PCs are none the wiser. If it fails, it takes damage, reacting and the PCs have revealed the mimic.

 

[James Gasik]

Even if it makes a save, it should have a visible effect. I mean, throw a fireball at a Rogue with Evasion. Even if he takes no damage, it's not like he can just stand stock still as if nothing happened.

He may be able to slowly walk away from the explosion, however.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Even if it makes a save, it should have a visible effect. I mean, throw a fireball at a Rogue with Evasion.

But it isn't a physical save, it is a mental one: Wisdom.

Perhaps a Wisdom (Perception) check to notice it "shaking" or something on the successful save would be appropriate? However, with false appearance, it isn't "moving" for this save IMO, so won't be revealed.

Another option would be making a DC 15 Intelligence (Arcana) (or something) to identify if the spell was cast successfully (i.e. had a valid target)?

 

[James Gasik]

But it isn't a physical save, it is a mental one: Wisdom.

Perhaps a Wisdom (Perception) check to notice it "shaking" or something on the successful save would be appropriate? However, with false appearance, it isn't "moving" for this save IMO, so won't be revealed.

Another option would be making a DC 15 Intelligence (Arcana) (or something) to identify if the spell was cast successfully (i.e. had a valid target)?

Well according to the rules on saving throws:

Saving throws aren't "the magic rolls off you harmlessly", saving throws are a response. A response is a reaction to something. To my mind, that means that you're doing something when you're making a saving throw. Maybe you say "get out of my head!", or wince and grit your teeth as your shake off something affecting your mind. But it's not "I ignore the effect passively."

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Well according to the rules on saving throws:

View attachment 253127
Saving throws aren't "the magic rolls off you harmlessly", saving throws are a response. A response is a reaction to something. To my mind, that means that you're doing something when you're making a saving throw. Maybe you say "get out of my head!", or wince and grit your teeth as your shake off something affecting your mind. But it's not "I ignore the effect passively."

A response to a mental save need not manifest physically - especially in a shapechanger that is accustomed to remaining perfectly still as part of its standard behavior. I mean, you could certainly narrate a physical response to a mental save but, IMO, I don’t want to grant cantrips any more power than they already have. If the creature saves, it gains the benefit of no damage and remaining motionless.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well according to the rules on saving throws:

View attachment 253127
Saving throws aren't "the magic rolls off you harmlessly", saving throws are a response. A response is a reaction to something. To my mind, that means that you're doing something when you're making a saving throw. Maybe you say "get out of my head!", or wince and grit your teeth as your shake off something affecting your mind.

Sure, I won't disagree with any of it (I know what the rules say, I checked before posting LOL) except our interpretations differ in respect to mental saving throws. Physical saving throws are much more likely to have a visible response. Mental ones could do as you suggest, certainly!

But, how a mimic "shakes off" the spell is up to the DM. This is why I suggested options for the OP such as:

Perhaps a Wisdom (Perception) check to notice it "shaking" or something on the successful save would be appropriate? However, with false appearance, it isn't "moving" for this save IMO, so won't be revealed.

Another option would be making a DC 15 Intelligence (Arcana) (or something) to identify if the spell was cast successfully (i.e. had a valid target)?

But it's not "I ignore the effect passively."

Never said it was, nor did I imply it. Please don't make inferences on what I write if it isn't something I actually wrote. Thanks.

 

[James Gasik]

Sure, I won't disagree with any of it (I know what the rules say, I checked before posting LOL) except our interpretations differ in respect to mental saving throws. Physical saving throws are much more likely to have a visible response. Mental ones could do as you suggest, certainly!

But, how a mimic "shakes off" the spell is up to the DM. This is why I suggested options for the OP such as:



Never said it was, nor did I imply it. Please don't make inferences on what I write if it isn't something I actually wrote. Thanks.

I didn't say that to say that this was your position. It was just a reinforcement of my previous post where I say a Rogue with Evasion can't just stand and say "fireball missed me"- something happens in the narrative.

If a DM wants to rule that mental saving throws are somehow not required to have a visible reaction, that's fine, but the rules don't make this distinction. Granted, they don't say that a visible reaction is required either, but since I think everyone describes physical saving throws, I don't see why mental ones get a pass.

In fact, I'd rather prefer a world where everyone sees the king wince when someone's attempt to mentally coerce him fails.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I didn't say that to say that this was your position

My apologies then! When you wrote this in quotes, I thought you were quoting or implying from something I wrote:

But it's not "I ignore the effect passively."

It was just a reinforcement of my previous post where I say a Rogue with Evasion can't just stand and say "fireball missed me"- something happens in the narrative.

Which I completely agree with since DEX saves are a physical response.

If a DM wants to rule that mental saving throws are somehow not required to have a visible reaction, that's fine, but the rules don't make this distinction. Granted, they don't say that a visible reaction is required either, but since I think everyone describes physical saving throws, I don't see why mental ones get a pass.

I wouldn't say it is so much "they (mental ones) get a pass" as how obvious are the signs (if any) that they would be noticed? This is why I suggested the idea of a Wisdom (Perception) check, so see if the "chest" reacts at all to the spell.

In fact, I'd rather prefer a world where everyone sees the king wince when someone's attempt to mentally coerce him fails.

Seeing a humanoid wince would certainly depend on a Wisdom (Perception) check IMO, but again with the false appearance feature of the mimic, how obvious would any successful mental save be?

Oddly enough, if the cantrip was something more like sacred flame where it is a DEX save, I would completely agree the mimic would need to "move to dodge" the spell on a successful save. Such movement could certainly break the false appearance effect and reveal the creature for what it is--instead of just a chest.

 

[James Gasik]

My apologies then! When you wrote this in quotes, I thought you were quoting or implying from something I wrote:



Which I completely agree with since DEX saves are a physical response.


I wouldn't say it is so much "they (mental ones) get a pass" as how obvious are the signs (if any) that they would be noticed? This is why I suggested the idea of a Wisdom (Perception) check, so see if the "chest" reacts at all to the spell.


Seeing a humanoid wince would certainly depend on a Wisdom (Perception) check IMO, but again with the false appearance feature of the mimic, how obvious would any successful mental save be?

Oddly enough, if the cantrip was something more like sacred flame where it is a DEX save, I would completely agree the mimic would need to "move to dodge" the spell on a successful save. Such movement could certainly break the false appearance effect and reveal the creature for what it is--instead of just a chest.

How does a chest wince or groan with a sudden migraine as their mind blocks a magical effect? It doesn't.

The Mimic's ability lets it look like an object as long as it isn't doing anything an object wouldn't be able to do. Like when it sprouts pseudopods to attack, it stops looking like an ordinary chest.