D&D 5E Toll the Chest

[Paul Farquhar]

It is surprising to me that people draw such hard lines in the sand over this particular minor issue.

As a DM, I would always ask myself "what sort of ruling is in the best interest of fun to the whole group?". I can imagine the priest-player being pretty bummed out if I didn't allow him to cast the spell on the mimic.

Sure.

But in order to do that you would have to accept the "DM decides" part of the rule. It's clear that there are certain players who can't accept that some things require the DM to make a judgment, based on narrative, rather than everything being determined by mechanistic rules.

 

[Hriston]

How does a troll just walking by meet the definition of "a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger."? It doesn't. Just because you fear it or feel like it's a threat, doesn't make it one.

Really? A troll, even one just walking by, isn't likely to cause damage or danger? That's a new one to me.

Until the party starting insulting it, it wasn't a threat. Then it attacked and became one.

Okay, so now you know the troll is a threat because it's participating in the first round of combat and you can see if anyone on the opposing side is surprised because they didn't notice the troll before combat started. Where's the problem, exactly?

RAW requires that "notice threat" = "notice potential threat" or the surprise rules break down.

No it doesn't for a couple reasons:

1. The definition of threat already contains the concept of potentiality. See the word likely in there?​

2. If you include every object and creature that might possibly harbor a threat in the category of things you can notice to avoid surprise, then no one will ever be surprised because they always will have noticed something.​

They are looking at it suspiciously. That's active, not passive perception. Passive is for when you aren't paying attention and might just happen to get lucky as you pass something. Also, if that cleric is proficient in perception, his passive is very likely 15 or 16. People seem to feel the need to start with a 16 or 18 in their primary stat.

I didn't see anything in the OP to indicate that any of the players declared an action to try to use their senses or awareness of the environment to detect the presence of a creature. If any of the PCs weren't otherwise occupying their attention, however, I would use their passive scores to determine if they noticed the creature as they came within range. Of course the cleric is likely to have a high Wisdom which I think should be rewarded. By deciding the mimic is automatically successful in its attempt to remain motionless, you're negating that PC build choice.

That "nearly" is contradictory to the perfect ability in the mechanics. It's an instance where the lore and mechanics don't mesh, but in the lesser case it is nearly perfect, which +5 very much fails to accomplish. If a 2nd level cleric can detect it half or more of the time, the mechanic has failed to come close to the lore.

It seems to me that neither the stat-block nor the lore support your claim that the ability is perfect. Perhaps you're bringing in this assumption from somewhere outside of the game?

Then you can show me where in the ability it explicitly requires a stealth check. Please quote it, because I have not been able to find it.

As always and as I just said in the post to which you're responding here, it's the DM's call whether to ask for an ability check and what ability to use. The OP explicitly asked how individual DMs would adjudicate the cleric player's action declaration, which is the question I answered.

My way matches RAW and lore.

I disagree. Neither the stat-block nor the lore state the mimic's ability works perfectly every single time.

Your way trivializes both the mimic's ability and the lore to the point where neither one is remotely close to being true.

And yet I have people in this thread accusing me of being unfair to the players. I guess you can't please everybody!

Why doesn't a rock make noise as it sits on the ground? Is it trying to be stealthy, too? The mimic is sitting there not moving, so like a rock it doesn't make noise by default.

A rock isn't a creature. It's an object, so it doesn't have to try to be stealthy to avoid being noticed. A creature, on the other hand, is noticed by default, even if it's unseen or invisible, even if it appears to be an ordinary object, unless it tries to be stealthy.

The cleric noticed the chest and was on guard for it to do literally anything. Being a mimic doesn't change that.

1. An ordinary chest is not a threat.
2. The cleric failed to notice the mimic.

 

[SkidAce]

 

[Maxperson]

Really? A troll, even one just walking by, isn't likely to cause damage or danger? That's a new one to me.

A troll that is just walking by is only likely to walk by, because that's all he is doing. To be likely to do anything, it has to be 67% or more likely to happen.

""Likely" means greater than 66 percent. "More likely than not" means greater than 50 percent. "About as likely as not" means 33 to 66 percent. "Unlikely" means less than 33 percent."

Okay, so now you know the troll is a threat because it's participating in the first round of combat and you can see if anyone on the opposing side is surprised because they didn't notice the troll before combat started. Where's the problem, exactly?

The problem is that is wasn't a threat before combat, so if we follow your procedure and not the book, we end up with the party not noticing the threat until combat begins and being surprised, despite seeing the troll.

The only way it works out for the party to not be surprised is if noticing the potential threat = notice threat.

No it doesn't for a couple reasons:

1. The definition of threat already contains the concept of potentiality. See the word likely in there?​

This is wrong. It only includes situations where combat is 67+% likely to happen. It has to include all potentiality, which your definition of threat fails to meet.

2. If you include every object and creature that might possibly harbor a threat in the category of things you can notice to avoid surprise, then no one will ever be surprised because they always will have noticed something.​

Which would end up being a rules failure if it wasn't for that "The DM decides" that covers the oddball situations.

I didn't see anything in the OP to indicate that any of the players declared an action to try to use their senses or awareness of the environment to detect the presence of a creature.

Really? You failed to see the cleric cast Toll the Dead on the chest to see if it was a creature?

By deciding the mimic is automatically successful in its attempt to remain motionless, you're negating that PC build choice.

So I shouldn't have a dragon fly if the player of the fighter makes the build choice to not have any ranged weapons. And I shouldn't have a creature turn invisible if no player made the build choice to be able to see invisibility. Because doing so would be negating those build choices.

I disagree with that. Build choices are inherently flawed and fail to work in 100% of situations. Hitting a situation where the build choice isn't working is just normal game play. Negation would be if I set it up so that the build choice almost never worked. A creature has special abilities and those abilities don't negate any build choices. They are designed to make the creature more challenging.

What's really happening is you are negating the mimic's CR and making the fight far easier than it should be. I would hope that you would lower the XP value of the mimic so as not to over reward the PCs for a fight that was far easier than it should have been.

And yet I have people in this thread accusing me of being unfair to the players. I guess you can't please everybody!

You're being unfair to both. Unfair to the mimic by removing a good chunk of it's challenge rating, and unfair to the players by removing the cleric's agency and surprising him despite the impossibility of surprise in that situation.

A rock isn't a creature. It's an object, so it doesn't have to try to be stealthy to avoid being noticed. A creature, on the other hand, is noticed by default, even if it's unseen or invisible, even if it appears to be an ordinary object, unless it tries to be stealthy.

Still is still. Still doesn't make noise. You're conflating a creature like a human, who is not naturally still with a creature like a mimic that has evolved to be still in order to survive. The mimic doesn't need to roll stealth to be still and therefore be silent.

1. An ordinary chest is not a threat.

All chests are potential threats to someone who doesn't have information about it yet.

2. The cleric failed to notice the mimic.

This is objectively false. The cleric in fact did notice the mimic. He just doesn't know that it's a mimic. If your PC suddenly appeared here on earth and saw an airplane high in the sky, he might think it's some sort of bird or dragon. Does he notice an airplane? 100%. Does he know it is an airplane? Not even a little.

 

[Imaculata]

To me it doesn't matter how the players defeat a monster, and if their solution is easy or hard. The monster remains the same challenge, and so the reward remains the same as well.

In my pirate campaign, one of my players killed a bunch of cultists by dropping a giant chandelier on the whole lot of them. Squish! Full exp.

And they recovered barrels of rum from a group of giant crabs, not by fighting them, but my transforming into a crab and mimicking their behavior. Again, full exp for beating the encounter.

See, I want my players to occasionally explore other options for beating encounters. I want to encourage them to be clever, and you don't do that by reducing the exp reward every time they do.

 

[Hriston]

A troll that is just walking by is only likely to walk by, because that's all he is doing. To be likely to do anything, it has to be 67% or more likely to happen.

""Likely" means greater than 66 percent. "More likely than not" means greater than 50 percent. "About as likely as not" means 33 to 66 percent. "Unlikely" means less than 33 percent."

That's, like, the opposite of a natural language definition of any of those words or phrases. I mean, where'd you get that? Glosses of likely range from probable to possible or plausible. I think it's at least plausible for a troll to cause damage or danger, don't you?

The problem is that is wasn't a threat before combat, so if we follow your procedure and not the book, we end up with the party not noticing the threat until combat begins and being surprised, despite seeing the troll.

I laid out my procedure in some detail up-thread. This is not it.

The only way it works out for the party to not be surprised is if noticing the potential threat = notice threat.

However you want to think about it is fine with me. It doesn't change how I would run the troll scenario, but noticing something that appears for all purposes to be an ordinary chest wouldn't count just because any and every chest could possibly be a threat. That way leads to madness. Everything's a potential threat.

This is wrong. It only includes situations where combat is 67+% likely to happen. It has to include all potentiality, which your definition of threat fails to meet.

Okay, just thought I'd help you out, but I can see you're married to your bizarre definition of the word likely. I couldn't care less, personally.

Which would end up being a rules failure if it wasn't for that "The DM decides" that covers the oddball situations.

Indeed, why have rules at all? Just tell the story you've already made up about the cleric who was on guard against the mimic.

Really? You failed to see the cleric cast Toll the Dead on the chest to see if it was a creature?

That's not "an action to try to use their senses or awareness of the environment to detect the presence of a creature." It's casting a spell that starts combat. Once the cleric's turn in combat comes up, they can cast the spell. Clearly, I was talking about an action that would have made the party aware of the mimic before combat started.

So I shouldn't have a dragon fly if the player of the fighter makes the build choice to not have any ranged weapons. And I shouldn't have a creature turn invisible if no player made the build choice to be able to see invisibility. Because doing so would be negating those build choices.

I disagree with that. Build choices are inherently flawed and fail to work in 100% of situations. Hitting a situation where the build choice isn't working is just normal game play. Negation would be if I set it up so that the build choice almost never worked. A creature has special abilities and those abilities don't negate any build choices. They are designed to make the creature more challenging.

Okay, but do you disagree with what I actually said? The cleric likely has the highest Wisdom of the party. Maybe they're proficient in Perception. The player made those choices in part so the PC would be good at detecting when creatures are present. The phrase While the mimic remains motionless leaves room for uncertainty as to whether the cleric can distinguish the mimic from an ordinary chest, so by deciding it's certain that it remains motionless and can't be distinguished, you're saying that choice doesn't matter in this one situation.

What's really happening is you are negating the mimic's CR and making the fight far easier than it should be. I would hope that you would lower the XP value of the mimic so as not to over reward the PCs for a fight that was far easier than it should have been.

Look at page 280 of the DMG. False Appearance has no effect on the mimic's CR.

You're being unfair to both. Unfair to the mimic by removing a good chunk of it's challenge rating, and unfair to the players by removing the cleric's agency and surprising him despite the impossibility of surprise in that situation.

Both of these claims are false. I've already shown how the mimic's CR is unaffected by it having False Appearance, so no part of its CR could be removed by calling for an ability check. Also, calling for a Stealth check respect's the cleric player's agency in giving their character a high Wisdom score. Furthermore, surprise is far from impossible in this scenario because no one in the party, not even the cleric, has actually spotted the mimic for what it is.

Still is still. Still doesn't make noise. You're conflating a creature like a human, who is not naturally still with a creature like a mimic that has evolved to be still in order to survive. The mimic doesn't need to roll stealth to be still and therefore be silent.

Please quote me the lore that says the mimic is perfectly silent and still because it's certainly not in its stat-block.

All chests are potential threats to someone who doesn't have information about it yet.

Right. This is what you're trying to sneak in with your "potential threat" houserule. It's complete rubbish. Everything's a potential threat. Therefore, no one is ever surprised. The rules care about actual threats.

This is objectively false. The cleric in fact did notice the mimic. He just doesn't know that it's a mimic. If your PC suddenly appeared here on earth and saw an airplane high in the sky, he might think it's some sort of bird or dragon. Does he notice an airplane? 100%. Does he know it is an airplane? Not even a little.

It doesn't matter if the cleric knows it's a mimic. What matters is if they're aware of the actual threat in the room 15 feet away from them. As was described in the OP, the cleric lacked that particular bit of knowledge and was testing a mere hunch to see if it was indeed correct.

 

[Maxperson]

That's, like, the opposite of a natural language definition of any of those words or phrases. I mean, where'd you get that? Glosses of likely range from probable to possible or plausible. I think it's at least plausible for a troll to cause damage or danger, don't you?

Sure it plausible. Plausible =/= likely. It's plausible that the ground will open up into a sinkhole swallowing the party, that doesn't make the ground a threat.

I laid out my procedure in some detail up-thread. This is not it.

This is a true dichotomy. Either the noticed creature in question is a threat before combat or it isn't. If entering combat is what determines if it's a threat, then it's impossible to fail to be surprised unless threat = potential threat. If it's a "threat" before hand, then it needs to meet the threshold of "likely" since that's the definition you provided or it's not a threat and you again have the above problem of automatically being surprised if combat happens.

The simplest and most accurate reading is that threat = potential threat. Then it doesn't matter if the creature is likely to attack or not, it's still noticed and an attack won't cause surprise.

However you want to think about it is fine with me. It doesn't change how I would run the troll scenario, but noticing something that appears for all purposes to be an ordinary chest wouldn't count just because any and every chest could possibly be a threat. That way leads to madness. Everything's a potential threat.

The cleric was still on guard for danger from the chest and was impossible to surprise by RAW. If I were in your game and I was surprised after being on my guard specifically for the chest to be trapped or a mimic, I'd get up and walk out. Invalidating my agency isn't something that I tolerate.

Okay, but do you disagree with what I actually said? The cleric likely has the highest Wisdom of the party. Maybe they're proficient in Perception. The player made those choices in part so the PC would be good at detecting when creatures are present.

Sure.

The phrase While the mimic remains motionless leaves room for uncertainty as to whether the cleric can distinguish the mimic from an ordinary chest, so by deciding it's certain that it remains motionless and can't be distinguished, you're saying that choice doesn't matter in this one situation.

His choice is entirely irrelevant to this one situation. The mimic has a special ability that is stronger than a low level cleric, even one trained in perception. People trained in perception and with a good wisdom are fairly common. The mimic species would have been wiped out long ago if it relied on a +5 stealth for survival. They're already a rare creature.

Look at page 280 of the DMG. False Appearance has no effect on the mimic's CR.

That just shows another way that the designers screwed up CR. The ability makes them more challenging, so it increases the challenge whether they've typed in a number or not. CR is I think the single biggest challenge to WotC. They've yet to get it anywhere close to right.

Right. This is what you're trying to sneak in with your "potential threat" houserule. It's complete rubbish. Everything's a potential threat. Therefore, no one is ever surprised. The rules care about actual threats.

It doesn't matter if the cleric knows it's a mimic. What matters is if they're aware of the actual threat in the room 15 feet away from them. As was described in the OP, the cleric lacked that particular bit of knowledge and was testing a mere hunch to see if it was indeed correct.

And the cleric was aware of a "threat" or was at least treating the chest as a threat. Treating the chest as a threat = noticing a threat. You can't, as in it's impossible, to treat something as a threat that could kill you at any moment, and then be surprised when it does.

As I said above, if a DM negated my agency like that, I'd walk out of the game and wouldn't return. It's utter nonsense to surprise the cleric under those circumstances.

 

[Imaculata]

Ah, I see you've outsmarted my encounter with a clever strategy. I shall now reward you with less EXP for beating the encounter, to make sure you'll never do it again.

 

[Maxperson]

Ah, I see you've outsmarted my encounter with a clever strategy. I shall now reward you with less EXP for beating the encounter, to make sure you'll never do it again.

The clever strategy of rolling a perception check?

 

[Hussar]

Ah, I see you've outsmarted my encounter with a clever strategy. I shall now reward you with less EXP for beating the encounter, to make sure you'll never do it again.

It really is rather amazing to see how other DM's approach the game. And, it is amazing what players will put up with.