D&D 5E Toxicity in the Fandom


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pemerton

Legend
Social mechanics were weak, but that's nothing new for D&D. What I really found unnerving was how the game mostly ignored non-adventuring things. No real rules for strongholds (you could buy them, but there wasn't a reason to) or investing in the world (you can't break wealth, players can use that to gain power!). Skill challenges were rarely exciting
4e has the only coherent framework for social conflict resolution in D&D up to the time of its publication. And in my view is superior to the rock/paper/scissors game in the 5e DMG, because more dramatic and immersive. If you weren't playing in exciting skill challenges, to me that suggests that your GM needed a bit more practice with them.

Here's an actual play example of a skill challenge that was (i) exciting and (ii) resolved a social conflict:
On the weekend I ran my first session of 4e that invovled only social interaction. So I thought I'd post about how it went.

The starting point
The PCs are low paragon - a dwarf fighter/warpriest of Moradin, a paladin of the Raven Queen, a wizard/invoker, a drow chaos sorcerer/demonskin adept, and a ranger-cleric of the Raven Queen. The player of the ranger-cleric was absent from the session.

The scenario combines elements of Thunderspire Labyringth (a 4e module), Heathen (from a 2008 online Dragon magazine), Speaker in Dreams (a 3E module from WotC) and Night's Dark Terror (a B/X module from TSR), plus some other elements of my own.

The PCs have recently entered a town which is under increasing pressure from hobgoblin and allied raiders. The town is ruled by a Patriarch of Bahamut and a Baron. The PCs are still getting the lay of the political land.

The PCs entered the town as heroes, having saved an affiliated village from being destroyed by hobgoblins. They were lauded by the Patriarch, and invited to join the Baron for dinner that evening. Later that day they then went on to stop an uprising by Demogorgon/Dagon cultists, and to cleanse the cultists' headquarters. In the headquarters, they rescued a priestess of Ioun who had been chained down next to a gibbering mouther, and had gone insane from the constant gibbering - the wizard cured her insanity using Remove Affliction.

The session begain with the PCs talking to the rescued priestess, and interrogating the one surviving and captured cultist.

Talking to the NPCs
This was almost entirely free roleplaying. The PC paladin had made a successful Intimidate check last session to cow the cultist and stop him running away. He made another check this session to interrogate him - the check was sufficiently high (in the high 20s or low 30s, from memory) that I decided nothing would be held back by the cultist. Some other skill rolls were made (History, Arcana) to see what sense the PCs could make of some of the things that the cultist revealed.

The conversations with the cultist and with the priestess happened side-by-side in play, and mostly side-by-side in the fiction. Three PCs were heavily involved - the paladin interrogating the cultist, the wizard and the sorcerer talking to the priestess. The dwarf was less heavily involved in the conversation, but the player of the dwarf was helping the other players put together and make sense of the information being obtained.

I awarded XP as per the guidelines in DMG2 - one monster's worth for 15 minutes of play.

Two revelations had the biggest immediate impact. One involved the PCs' principal enemy. This is the leader of the hobgoblins, a powerful wizard called Paldemar (but called Golthar in Goblinish). The PCs learned that in the town he is not known to be a villain, but is apparently well-thought of, is an important scholar and astrologer, is an advisor to the Baron, and is engaged to the Baron's niece. The PCs (and the players) became worried that he might be at dinner that evening. This was a worry for two reasons - (i) they didn't really want to fight him, and (ii) they know some secrets about an ancient minotaur kingdom that he does not, but has been trying to discover. One of those secrets involves a magic tapestry that the PCs carry around with them (becaue they don't have anywhere safe to leave it).

The second revelation was that the Baron was prophesied to die that night. The paladin had already sensed a catoblepas in the swamps outside the town, and had sensed it approaching the town earlier that day. The priestess explained that a year ago the Baron had been visited by a catoblepas, as a type of forewarning. And the cultist explained that the uprising had taken place today in anticipation of the Baron's imminent demise.

After learning these things, the PCs cleaned up in the cultists' bathroom and then hurried off to dinner.

The dinner
The PCs arrived late, and were the last ones there. On the high table they could see the Baron, and his sister and brother-in-law, and also Paldemar, their wizard enemy. They left their more gratuitous weapons - a halberd for the dwarf and a longbow for the ranger - with the dwarf's herald - an NPC dwarf minion called Gutboy Barrelhouse - and took their seats at the high table. Gutboy was also carrying the backpack with the tapestry.

The PCs also noticed a series of portraits hanging behind the high table. One had a young woman, who was the spitting image of a wizard's apprentice they had recently freed from a trapping mirror - except that adventure had happened 100 years in the past (under a time displacement ritual), and this painting was clearly newly painted. Another, older, painting was of a couple, a man resembling the Baron, and a woman resmembling the rescued apprentice but at an older age.

About this time the players started talking about the skill checks they wanted to make, and I asked them what they were hoping to achieve. Their main goal was to get through the evening without upsetting the baron, without getting into a fight with Paldemar (which meant, at a minimum, not outing him as the leader of the hobgoblin raiders), and without revealing any secrets to him. In particular, they didn't want him to learn that they had found the tapestry, and that it was in fact 15' away from him in Gutboy's backpack. But it also quickly became clear that they wanted to learn about the people in the portraits, to try and learn what had happened over the past 100 years to the apprentice they freed, and how she related to the Baron's family.

This whole scene was resolved as a complexity 5 skill challenge. It ran for more than an hour, but probably not more than two. The general pattern involved - Paldemar asking the PCs about their exploits; either the paladin or the sorcerer using Bluff to defuse the question and/or evade revealing various secrets they didn't want Paldemar to know; either the paladin or the wizard then using Diplomacy to try to change the topic of conversation to something else - including the Baron's family history; and Paldemar dragging things back onto the PCs exploits and discoveries over the course of their adventures.

Following advice given by LostSoul on these boards back in the early days of 4e, my general approach to running the skill challenge was to keep pouring on the pressure, so as to give the players a reason to have their PCs do things. And one particular point of pressure was the dwarf fighter/cleric - in two senses. In story terms, he was the natural focus of the Baron's attention, because the PCs had been presenting him as their leader upon entering the town, and subsequently. And the Baron was treating him as, in effect, a noble peer, "Lord Derrik of the Dwarfholm to the East". And in mechanical terms, he has no training in social skills and a CHA of 10, so putting the pressure on him forced the players to work out how they would save the situation, and stop the Baron inadvertantly, or Paldemar deliberately, leading Derrik into saying or denying something that would give away secrets. (Up until the climax of the challenge, the only skill check that Derriks' player made in contribution to the challenge was an Athletics check - at one point the Baron described himself as a man of action rather than ideas, and Derrik agreed - I let his player make an Athletics check - a very easy check for him with a +15 bonus - to make the fact of agreement contribute mechanically to the party's success in dealing with the situation.)

Besides the standard skill checks, other strategies were used to defuse the tension at various points. About half way through, the sorcerer - feigning drunkenness with his +20 Bluff bonus - announced "Derrik, it's time to take a piss" - and then led Derrik off to the privy, and then up onto the balcony with the minstrel, so that Paldemar couldn't keep goading and trying to ensnare him. At another point, when the conversation turned to how one might fight a gelatinous cube (Paldemar having explained that he had failed in exploring one particular minotaur ruin because of some cubes, and the PCs not wanting to reveal that they had explored that same ruin after beating the cubes) the sorcerer gave an impromptu demonstration by using Bedevilling Burst to knock over the servants carrying in the jellies for desert. (I as GM had mentioned that desert was being brought in. It was the player who suggested that it should probably include jellies.) That he cast Bedevilling Burst he kept secret (another Bluff check). But he loudly made the point that jellies can be squashed at least as easily as anything else.

While fresh jellies were prepared, Derrik left the table to give a demonstration of how one might fight oozes using a halberd and fancy footwork. But he then had to return to the table for desert.

Around this time, the challenge had evolved to a point where one final roll was needed, and 2 failures had been accrued. Paldemar, once again, was badgering Derrik to try to learn the secrets of the minotaur ruins that he was sure the PCs knew. And the player of Derrik was becoming more and more frustrated with the whole situation, declaring (not speaking in character, but speaking from the perspective of his PC) "I'm sick of putting up with this. I want Paldemar to come clean."

The Baron said to Derrik, "The whole evening, Lord Derrik, it has seemed to me that you are burdened by something. Will you not speak to me?" Derrik got out of his seat and went over to the Baron, knelt beside him, and whispered to him, telling him that out of decorum he would not name anyone, but there was someone close to the Baron who was not what he seemed, and was in fact a villainous leader of the hobgoblin raiders. The Baron asked how he knew this, and Derrik replied that he had seen him flying out of goblin strongholds on his flying carpet. The Baron asked him if he would swear this in Moradin's name. Derrik replied "I swear". At which point the Baron rose from the table and went upstairs to brood on the balcony, near the minstrel.

With one check still needed to resolve the situation, I had Paldemar turn to Derrik once again, saying "You must have said something very serious, to so upset the Baron." Derrik's player was talking to the other players, and trying to decide what to do. He clearly wanted to fight. I asked him whether he really wanted to provoke Paldemar into attacking him. He said that he did. So he had Derrik reply to Paldemar, 'Yes, I did, Golthar". And made an Intimidate check. Which failed by one. So the skill challenge was over, but a failure - I described Paldemar/Golthar standing up, pickup up his staff from where it leaned against the wall behind him, and walking towards the door.

Now we use a houserule (perhaps, in light of DMG2, not so much a houserule as a precisification of a suggestion in that book) that a PC can spend an action point to make a secondary check to give another PC a +2 bonus, or a reroll, to a failed check. The player of the wizard PC spent an action point, and called out "Golthar, have you fixed the tear yet in your robe?" - this was a reference to the fact that the PCs had, on a much earlier occasion, found a bit of the hem of Paldemar's robe that had torn off in the ruins when he had had to flee the gelatinous cubes. I can't remember now whether I asked for an Intimidate check, or decided that this was an automatic +2 bonus for Derrik - but in any event, it turned the failure into a success. We ended the session by noting down everyone's location on the map of the Baron's great hall, and making initiative rolls. Next session will begin with the fight against Paldemar (which may or may not evolve into a fight with a catoblepas also - the players are a bit anxious that it may do so).

This is the most sophisticated skill challenge I've run to date, in terms of the subtlety of the framing, the degree of back and forth (two major PCs with whom the PCs were interacting, with different stakes in the interaction with each of them), my concentration on evolving the scene to reflect the skill checks and the other action while still keeping up the pressure on the players (and on their PCs), and the goals of the players, which started out a little uncertain and somewhat mixed, but ended up being almost the opposite of what they were going into the challenge.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I remember when I went to see John Carter with my friends. They immediately called out the movie for being derivative, and using tired old tropes.

When I pointed to them that John Carter was the original (or at least, an early) source, they just shrugged and said "well there was no reason to keep on doing it".

As the man said, you can't please all of the people, all of the time. If your adaptation makes changes, you get the Full Metal Alchemist problem ("it's not true to the manga, it doesn't matter how good it is!"). If you make no changes, you get the World of Warcraft Classic problem ("man, this is just old and busted!").

The irony, of course, is that John Carter actively updated and tried to reduce some of the things that showed their age in the source--and got crap for that, too.

But yes, I understand. Over and above the limits of the SFX technology of the time, and some of the very much thing-of-its-time social elements, Them! is a hard sell for a modern viewer because people have seen the things it did a million times now. The fact it was the originator of the things later done to death doesn't really matter.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
4e has the only coherent framework for social conflict resolution in D&D up to the time of its publication. And in my view is superior to the rock/paper/scissors game in the 5e DMG, because more dramatic and immersive. If you weren't playing in exciting skill challenges, to me that suggests that your GM needed a bit more practice with them.

Here's an actual play example of a skill challenge that was (i) exciting and (ii) resolved a social conflict:
In my experience, I have never found the round-robin of skill checks of dubious connection to the scenario that is a 4e skill challenge to be remotely immersive. But I'm sure there are plenty of counter-examples.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
In my experience, I have never found the round-robin of skill checks of dubious connection to the scenario that is a 4e skill challenge to be remotely immersive. But I'm sure there are plenty of counter-examples.

This is, of course, one of the problems with any generic structured resolution system; without the hooks and bits that make more specific subsystems work, its entirely dependent entirely on the users to contextualize it enough to feel connection (this would be true with simple one-off skill-check things too, but nothing much is going to bring those more connection; there's just nothing to work with).

This is probably an ironic comment coming from me, since I'm not a fan of massive special-casing in rules sets, but there's no question there's a gap between people who can apply a very generic framework to a situation and have it provide meaning and those who need more.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
4e has the only coherent framework for social conflict resolution in D&D up to the time of its publication. And in my view is superior to the rock/paper/scissors game in the 5e DMG, because more dramatic and immersive. If you weren't playing in exciting skill challenges, to me that suggests that your GM needed a bit more practice with them.

Here's an actual play example of a skill challenge that was (i) exciting and (ii) resolved a social conflict:
What I didn't care for with skill challenges was basically how they were meant to replace just about any non combat action, and sometimes, it was blatantly obvious how artificial they were.

I eventually got bored of them, lol. But there were two egregious examples I'll never forget.

1) we're in the forest looking for a monster, and the DM trots out a wilderness survival skill challenge. Some of us don't have skills for this, and I point out we have a Ranger who has all the skills relevant. "Why would we have a skill challenge? We could just mess it up- wouldn't it just make sense to do whatever the Ranger says? This is his thing, right?"

(As an aside, this touches on one of the things I didn't like about skill challenges. A few times, I found myself in one, where none of my skills were applicable, and I didn't want to roll because I'd just make the party more likely to fail. Or as I once put it, "this sucks, if I didn't show up today, you guys would have succeeded easily".)

2) an example of a "combat skill challenge", where the adventure writer decides to throw in some action. In this case, during Scales of War, we have to engage in a skill challenge to control a flying ship while being attacked by minion wyverns. They didn't do much damage, but fighting them meant you couldn't make a skill challenge roll. But what they did do, was hit you with a stun, preventing you from rolling, if you didn't fight them.

This was positively grueling because my Ranger was the best ranged attacker, but also the one with the best skill check to try and fly the ship.
 

You mean IT! The Terror from Beyond Space? I'd say that the inspiration there is about 1/100th what we're seeing with The Joker given the massive aesthetic borrowing, it's not even comparable. With IT! the similarities were basically very broad plot outlines and nothing which makes Alien unique. Like it's entirely possible Dan O'Bannon or Ronald Shusett had seen IT! among dozens of other monster movies and parts of it were bouncing around in they wrote the story that they later re-wrote to be the screenplay for Alien, but the similarities are shallow as hell. You can see them discussed here for example:


I would say Dark Star was more probably more influential, but I guess because O'Bannon wrote that too it's kind of different. People point to Planet of the Vampires too, but I don't remember anything about that movie other than that it was INSANELY stylish, and ridiculously before its time looks-wise. I suspect that's all it had going for it, but those costumes! Very different look to Alien of course.

I hear Aquaman 2 is "heavily inspired" by Planet of the Vampires (according to the director of Aquaman 1/2), so that should be fascinating!

Planet of the vampires I can definitely see in aliens (especially the presentation of ancient alien fossils). Aliens is definitely not a rip off of it but watching it can definitely ad something to Alien if you watch it after.

Apparently Alien was in part inspired by O’Bannons experience with crohns. I have had a number of crohns surgeries and when I learned that helped inspire the film, it definitely clicked
 

Hussar

Legend
2) an example of a "combat skill challenge", where the adventure writer decides to throw in some action. In this case, during Scales of War, we have to engage in a skill challenge to control a flying ship while being attacked by minion wyverns. They didn't do much damage, but fighting them meant you couldn't make a skill challenge roll. But what they did do, was hit you with a stun, preventing you from rolling, if you didn't fight them.

This was positively grueling because my Ranger was the best ranged attacker, but also the one with the best skill check to try and fly the ship.
That's a bad skill challenge?

Look, I wasn't there, but, from that description, I'd say that was an absolutely fantastic skill challenge. Meaningful choices, actual consequences? How is this a bad skill challenge?

But, you're also missing the point. Before 4e, there was pretty much nothing in D&D for dealing with this sort of thing. No framework at all. It was pretty much make it up as you go every single time. And, because skills in 3e scaled so quickly, it was more a case of either you could do it trivially, or you would automatically fail. That's what the 4e skill system was reacting to.

5e has taken the 4e framework and adapted it in a somewhat looser form with group skill checks. Remember, prior to 4e, that didn't actually exist in D&D. The idea of everyone needing to make a skill check to resolve some scenario just didn't exist. But also, this point:

they were meant to replace just about any non combat action,

is just not accurate at all. That is a serious misread of how skill challenges were presented in 5e.
 

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