Spelljammer Dark Sun confirmed? Or, the mysterious case of the dissappearing Spelljammer article...

[Maxperson]

Sure I can: BARDS CAN'T USE IT.

That isn't a refutation. At best, you miiiiiiiiiight be able to argue that it's an inconsistency, but it's really not. See below.

If, as you claim, it's function is to channel "arcane magic", and if, as you claim, bard spells are arcane magic, then the only logical conclusion is an arcane focus can be used to cast bard spells.

It's not a claim. I have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the RAW on page 151 says that foci are designed to channel the power of arcane spells.

It's a fact that foci channel the power of arcane spells, and a fact that bards are arcane casters. Your conclusion is actually illogical, though, as it relies on "designed to channel arcane spells" equaling "not designed to channel arcane spells," which isn't a logical position to take. Are you going to argue that up = down, left = right and hot = cold as well?

Some of the logical conclusions are 1) Bards just haven't figured out how to use arcane foci yet. Nothing says that wizards, warlocks and sorcerers use them in the same way so maybe the bardic method is unknown, 2) since bardic magic uses music and arcane foci don't provide music, bards need to use instruments as their arcane foci. The failure is on the bardic method, not the ability of arcane foci to channel arcane spells.

P.S. Insomnia sucks! I'm off to try and fall asleep again.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

foci are designed to channel the power of arcane spells.

"Arcane" being in world fluff, and fluff isn't rules. What do druidic foci (listed right alongside arcane foci on the equipment list) channel?

Bards just haven't figured out how to use arcane foci yet.

Which is why I mentioned multiclassed wizard/bards. As a wizard, a character explicitly learns to cast spells with an arcane focus. So they should be able to use a wand to cast a bard spell. But RAW, they cannot. Note that you do not need an instrument to cast bard spells. Whilst bards can use an instrument, they can instead use material components from a spell component pouch. Bard spells can be cast without music.

Now, if you wanted to rule that a wizard/bard can cast bard spells with their wand that would be a perfectly legitimate use of DM fiat. Because DM's call trumps rules. Alternatively, one might rule that a bard who is a devout follower of the god of music is casting divine magic. Since it has no mechanical meaning, it's not going to break anything.

 

[cbwjm]

Note that it does not specify "artificer spells". A multiclass artificer/cleric could use their tools to cast cleric spells (a single class cleric can also do that with the Artificer Initiate Feat).

It does specify artificer spell effects, right at the start. It also specifies spells gained through that spellcasting feature (ie, the artificer spellcasting feature). Spells gained through the cleric spellcasting feature would not be able to be casting using their artisan's tools.

 

[DEFCON 1]

That argument (and most of your arguments) boils down to nothing in the books mattering at all. If you believe that, why are you even here? I really don't understand.

I'm here because I like Dungeons & Dragons and like talking about Dungeons & Dragons.

But if you noticed... when I made my original post, I didn't quote anybody or tag anybody, I just said my piece on the subject. You chose to engage with me about my take and responded to my comment. I then responded back. So that's why I'm here now, because you made the choice to get into conversation about this.

If you don't want to talk about my belief that anything that appears in any of the WotC books is there for the express use of players who wish to have something creatively designed and already published to use in their game-- but that those players are under no obligation to do so or even care what appears if they don't wish to use it or don't like what was written-- then you don't need to make the choice to engage. You can go ahead and believe that WotC should defer to what you want in what they write and publish and make posts about that fact. That's cool. That's what these forums are here for. I ain't stopping you.

I might suggest in my own posts that anyone who thinks in that way is ultimately going to be disappointed because it's impossible for WotC to cater to every single player out there, all with completely different opinions on what should be done... but so what? It's not like WotC is taking either of our comments and basing their decisions on it. 99.99% of all posts and threads here on EN World are really just naval-gazing and entertainment for the posters for our own sake. I accepted that long ago that nothing I say here is going to have any impact on the actual game, so if people disagree with my takes... so be it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Whatever appears in the book will DEFINITELY affect what appears in my game. I want my game to be as official as possible. I've always felt that part of my enjoyment of D&D comes from being part of the larger D&D community. Some of my least favorite interactions with other players have come from realizing that we have absolutely no common ground. I'd meet people at games days or conventions or whatever and I'd say "You like Forgotten Realms too? Awesome. I'm running a game set in Icewind Dale." and they'd reply with something like "Icewind Dale doesn't exist in my game. the Realms were conquered by the Decepticons from Transformers when they came thought a portal 200 years ago. The PCs are part of a a rebellion being led by the Thundercats whose ship crash landed there 20 years later." and I'd think "Wow...we really have nothing in common. We can't discuss our games because it would require hours of providing context before we even can arrive at a common ground."

So, if the new books change the world, I'll likely use whatever is in there...or dislike it enough that I won't play any games in Dark Sun. But I'm unlikely to change it. There's too many good worlds out there that I like the lore of the play one I don't. Or to spend the time and energy to fix a broken one.

That's cool. And it sounds like you accept the idea that any new book that is going to be published might change things and thus you might choose not to use the book. That's exactly the attitude I think everyone should have.

Now that being said... I would put forth the idea that it's well enough to want to start your game as official as possible by using what it in the book... but as soon as a person starts their own campaign and starts playing, they have now gone off on their own and are no longer in an official game, they are in their own game. So it is now impossible for your game to be a part of some larger D&D community with a common ground because every single one of us now has a completely different game.

Yes, a number of us may have started on a common ground, but who really cares how our games started before we actually began playing? It's the actual playing of the game that matters and then how the game ends for us to remember it. And thus if our games while playing and after they are done are going to have no common ground with any other player in the larger D&D community (outside of our table)... does beginning at a common ground really matter? I don't think so. There's no reason not to make a few changes at the start as well if they ultimately make our table's game better while we play.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

RAW explicitly says otherwise. I will quote it again.

Chapter 5, Page 151 of the PHB...

"An arcane focus is a special item-an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand-like length of wood, or some similar item designed to channel the power of arcane spells."

What is it designed to do? Not cast warlock lists. Not cast wizard lists. Not cast sorcerer lists. It is designed to channel arcane spells. Period. That's the RAW of the item.

Fluff. There are no arcane spells.

 

[Shardstone]

Crawford said mostly, not completely. If an arcane focus can be used for wizard spells, then wizard spells are arcane spells. Idk how this is up for debate.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Here we could use a house rule, something like the variant classes from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana or the "archetypes" from Pathfinder. Then a divine or primal sorcerer is possible in your tabletop if you want.

In my tabletop divine and primal are different power sources.

Other point is if "ki" and psionic can work as the same or different power sources. This is important because if after the psionic powers the next step will be a remake of the martial adepts (3.5 Tome of Battle: Book of nine Swords). And then WotC should explain if the martial adepts should be allowed in Athas or not. Or the totemist shaman (incarnum soulmelder). Maybe in Athas some kaiju creatures are worshipped as deities by some Lovecraftian cults/tribes.

Let's remember the last construct races, warforged, autognomes and future glitchlings don't need neither water nor food, and that in Dark Sun it is practically broken, because the survival is one of the hardest challenges.

My theory is they will bet for a spin-off of Dark Sun, because this allows the mixture from different elements (for example the new PC races from the 3.5 psionic handbook). Practically it would be all the crunch, but the original lore totally untouched.

WotC has to choose the future plans about the metaplot. Aren't canon the novels any more?

* What if players want to add to their Dark-Sun game new elements from 3PPs?

* Who would win in a war, the sorcerer-kings or Cobra (the archienemies of G.I.Joe)?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Of course it can be used for wizard spells because of the rules on page 151 which allow it to channel arcane power. The wizard uses it for wizard spells. The focus channels arcane power, not specifically wizard spells. This is RAW.

The bard is a case of specific beats general and uses his instrument as his arcane focus.

let me start by agreeing 100% with you and how you read this... but it brings to mind a related qustion

in 5e how defined a diffrence is there between arcane and divine magic really, and how much is just a hold over from prev editions?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

(Even multiclass Wizard/Bards can't use it to cast bard spells.)

there are no spell slots per class you use any spell slot to cast any spell so once you know/prep a spell it isn't a wizard or bard or cleric or ranger spell it is just a spell you have.