Demetrios1453
Legend
By doing it this way, the player cedes that control to the DM. If the player wants something more specific, they say so. If they don't, then it's up to the DM.
D&D General "I make a perception check."
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
By doing it this way, the player cedes that control to the DM. If the player wants something more specific, they say so. If they don't, then it's up to the DM.
It would work a lot better this way if passive were 5+stat+possible prof rather than the old taking ten
A skill check represents an attempt to accomplish some goal, usually while under some sort of time pressure or distraction. Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions and eliminate the luck factor.
Taking 10: When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help (such as using Climb to ascend a knotted rope, or using Heal to give a wounded PC long-term care).
For example, Krusk the barbarian has a Climb skill modifier of +6 (4 ranks, +3 Strength modifier, –1 penalty for wearing studded
leather armor). The steep, rocky slope he’s climbing has a Climb DC of 10. With a little care, he can take 10 and succeed automatically. But partway up the slope, a goblin scout begins pelting him with sling stones. Krusk needs to make a Climb check to get up to the goblin, and this time he can’t simply take 10. If his player rolls 4 or higher on 1d20, he succeeds.
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20. Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take. Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure (for instance, a Disable Device check to disarm a trap), your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task (in this case, the character would most likely set off the trap). Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.
For example, Krusk comes to a cliff face. He attempts to take 10, for a result of 16 (10 plus his +6 skill modifier), but the DC is 20, and the DM tells him that he fails to make progress up the cliff. (His check is at least high enough that he does not fall.) Krusk cannot take 20 because there is a penalty associated with failure (falling, in this case). He can try over and over, and eventually he may succeed, but he might fall one or more times in the process. Later, Krusk finds a cave in the cliff and searches it. The DM sees in the Search skill description that each 5-foot-square area takes a full-round action to search, and she secretly assigns a DC of 15 to the attempt. She estimates that the floors, walls, and ceiling of the cave make up about ten 5-foot squares, so she tells Krusk’s player that it takes 1 minute (10 rounds) to search the whole cave. Krusk’s player gets a result of 12 on 1d20, adds no skill ranks because Krusk doesn’t have the Search skill, and adds –1 because that is Krusk’s Intelligence modifier. His roll fails. Now the player declares that Krusk is going to search the cavern high and low, taking as long as it takes. The DM takes the original time of 1 minutes and multiplies it by 20, for 20 minutes. That’s how long it takes for Krusk to search the whole cave in exacting detail. Now Krusk’s player treats his roll as if it were 20, for a result of 19. That’s good enough to beat the DC of 15, and Krusk finds an old, bronze key discarded under a loose rock.
Taking 10: When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help (such as using Climb to ascend a knotted rope, or using Heal to give a wounded PC long-term care).
For example, Krusk the barbarian has a Climb skill modifier of +6 (4 ranks, +3 Strength modifier, –1 penalty for wearing studded
leather armor). The steep, rocky slope he’s climbing has a Climb DC of 10. With a little care, he can take 10 and succeed automatically. But partway up the slope, a goblin scout begins pelting him with sling stones. Krusk needs to make a Climb check to get up to the goblin, and this time he can’t simply take 10. If his player rolls 4 or higher on 1d20, he succeeds.
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20. Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take. Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure (for instance, a Disable Device check to disarm a trap), your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task (in this case, the character would most likely set off the trap). Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.
For example, Krusk comes to a cliff face. He attempts to take 10, for a result of 16 (10 plus his +6 skill modifier), but the DC is 20, and the DM tells him that he fails to make progress up the cliff. (His check is at least high enough that he does not fall.) Krusk cannot take 20 because there is a penalty associated with failure (falling, in this case). He can try over and over, and eventually he may succeed, but he might fall one or more times in the process. Later, Krusk finds a cave in the cliff and searches it. The DM sees in the Search skill description that each 5-foot-square area takes a full-round action to search, and she secretly assigns a DC of 15 to the attempt. She estimates that the floors, walls, and ceiling of the cave make up about ten 5-foot squares, so she tells Krusk’s player that it takes 1 minute (10 rounds) to search the whole cave. Krusk’s player gets a result of 12 on 1d20, adds no skill ranks because Krusk doesn’t have the Search skill, and adds –1 because that is Krusk’s Intelligence modifier. His roll fails. Now the player declares that Krusk is going to search the cavern high and low, taking as long as it takes. The DM takes the original time of 1 minutes and multiplies it by 20, for 20 minutes. That’s how long it takes for Krusk to search the whole cave in exacting detail. Now Krusk’s player treats his roll as if it were 20, for a result of 19. That’s good enough to beat the DC of 15, and Krusk finds an old, bronze key discarded under a loose rock.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
it isn't just shy... again my character is a living person who grew up in your world. ME, I am NOT someone that grew up in your world. My Character knows better then me about A LOT of things... why I want to default to what my character would know and do I not... it doens't just have to be talking to the king, but looking for shadow theives, or understanding mystic ruins, or hiding from the watch... "How do you hide" seems a mean qustion to ask a player who doesn't know how to hide if there character is prof expertise in stealth and have a magic bonus to stealth... THEY know how to hide even if I don't...
so far I agree 100% there is no way to make it perfect just character skill. However my main push in this discussion is the benefit of leaning as much as character and least on player as possible.
except the CHARACTER skill should play as much or more importance (IMO) to that scenario then the player.
if my dex 8 non prof in stealth paladin with plate that gives disadvantage to stealth describes the perfect hiding place, and my rogue with an 18 dex prof in stealth expertise in stealth and a cloak of elven kind just says "I don't know where to hide but I try" I may give the rogue "Okay you hide no roll" and the paladin "okay all that description is awesome and I will give you that roll at disadvantage with a -1 to see how well it works"
my problem is when (and it seems like it is not only possible but likely in one of your games so correct me if I am wrong) Your answer to the above would be to auto pass the paladin not taking his lack of in character skill into account, and ask the player of the rogue for a better description of what he uses to hide.
of course it is... and again (and again and again I am sure I should save this as a macro for this discussion) I do have auto pass situations in my game in fact my house rules give MORE not less auto successes to PCs and important NPCs. I just always take the skill of the character before the description or skill of the player
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
Per the rules of the game, the player doesn't actually have any control except to describe what they want to do.
Just saying "I make a Perception check" actually does cede more control to the DM than the rules appear to envision because now the DM is forced to assume or describe that for the player, which is not the DM's role.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
So, two issues with this:
1. that’s the player’s responsibility according to the How to Play rules, not the DM’s. I am already responsible for creating and controlling everything and everyone else in the fiction world and describing it all to the players, I don’t need the additional burden of deciding what they want or what their characters do to get it. I’m here to run a game, not to tell the players a story.
2. In my experience, players are almost never ok with ceding that control when it leads to negative results for their character. If I make assumptions about what their character does, and something bad happens based on those assumptions, the likelihood of triggering complains of “but I didn’t say I actually touched it!” or whatever are extremely high.
By the rules, the player isn't permitted to declare a die roll for an ability check. Calling for a role is solely the purview of the GM.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
I want to make a perception check... with my characters skill listed on the sheet that represents how well he actively checks things out
To do that, you need to describe an action or set of actions your character is taking in the world. that's all.
jgsugden
Legend
When a player says, "I make a perception check", I respond in one of threee ways.
1.) "OK, roll." Sometimes, when you want to keep things moving, you don't need to fight against everything that isn't going exectly as you want it. I'd rather they be immersed into the story and describe more specifically what their character is doing, but using this as shorthand isn't a crime, and it sometimes allows me to maintain a higher emotional state by keeping it moving through the moment.
2.) "Perception checks tell you that you notice, but Investigation checks reveal details about the things you've noticed already. What are you trying to do?" This encourages them, without reprimanding them, to go for a more 'in story' approach to explaining what they're doing.
3.) "Is there something in particular you're doing? If not, we just use your passive perception." This encourages them to be specific about what they're doing if they want to exceed that passive protection (*/- 5 for advantage / disadvantage based upon distraction)
1.) "OK, roll." Sometimes, when you want to keep things moving, you don't need to fight against everything that isn't going exectly as you want it. I'd rather they be immersed into the story and describe more specifically what their character is doing, but using this as shorthand isn't a crime, and it sometimes allows me to maintain a higher emotional state by keeping it moving through the moment.
2.) "Perception checks tell you that you notice, but Investigation checks reveal details about the things you've noticed already. What are you trying to do?" This encourages them, without reprimanding them, to go for a more 'in story' approach to explaining what they're doing.
3.) "Is there something in particular you're doing? If not, we just use your passive perception." This encourages them to be specific about what they're doing if they want to exceed that passive protection (*/- 5 for advantage / disadvantage based upon distraction)
