D&D (2024) First playtest thread! One D&D Character Origins.

[Maxperson]

First of all, we don’t really know what the total package is going to look like, it’s quite possible that the new characters are pretty much comparable in power to the old ones (the “Power Level” sidebar in the playtest doc implies that is a goal).

Yes. I understand that and read that sidebar. As I pointed out to @Parmandur, though, it really can't be balanced or backwards compatible with feats as part of the backgrounds, which at this point are pretty much a guarantee. We see it with the new books they are releasing.

WotC also promised backwards compatibility with 3.5 and 3e, but 3.5 had the same issues I see here. You could run them together, but they were not equal to one another.

The backwards compatibility doesn’t have to be at the level of individual components like backgrounds. It could be at the level of the total package.

That's a pipe dream. It's already obvious that you can't balance the new backgrounds with the old ones, since the new ones are strictly better given the feat, so all else being equal, the new entire package will be better than the old entire package based on that alone. If they start mucking around with the classes, spells and subclasses, I really doubt that things will remain equal there, but I'm willing to wait and see. Maybe WotC will surprise me.

Regardless though, being compatible doesn’t even have to mean being completely equal in power. It’s certainly desirable for things to be pretty close, but we already have huge power skew between strong characters and weak characters.

It has to remain close or that huge power skew will become even more pronounced, further wrecking any backwards compatibility.

Fundamentally, there are a variety of ways things could play out regarding precisely how compatible the old stuff and the new stuff are. I suspect a big chunk of what we’re doing in the playtest is giving the community a chance to tell WotC where they think the line is. If for you having backgrounds give out 1st level feats is a bridge too far, I suggest you tell them that. Personally, I don’t think it’s worth getting worked up about, since I’ve already played at plenty of tables with a bigger power skew between characters and it was fine.

Sure. This is just the first iteration of the first portion of the playtest. I'm not thinking anything is finalized, except for some sort of feats being tied to background. I think THAT is set in stone.

 

[Maxperson]

No, that sidebar is irrelevant to the discussion, as it exclusively concerns the fact that playtest material is not necessarily at the same power level as published material, because it isn’t finished.

I’m referring to the sidebar describing what to do with your ASIs if you use a PHB or Tasha’s race with a UA background.

Okay. I'm missing it. How is that not backwards compatible or basically equal? You get +2, +1 with the old race, with Tasha's floating ASIs, or with the new background. You can't get them from more than one source, so you will only ever get +2, +1(excepting old mountain dwarf). I don't see the issue.

 

[Maxperson]

On the other hand, I think the old background is way more interesting in a role playing way than the new one. The new background feels like too much of a slide backwards to a purely mechanical 4e mindset.

Yes. It is absolutely a better roleplaying tool than the new background. I agree with that.

 

[Parmandur]

I agree. If I have to fix it, though, it's not backwards compatible.

Edit: It's also not a great fix as it now makes the old backgrounds strictly better than the new ones. They now have the feat + the feature. To really fix it I have to remove the feature too, which makes it the new background. So also not compatible on that front.

Sure. Other than feats being significantly superior with the new background, they are the same. I agree with that.

The feature was always a balance neutral ribbon, the DM was encouraged to make them up.

 

[Simpletense]

Backwards compatible means that you must be able to mix and match old content with new and have a roughly equal experience power wise. It doesn't have to be exactly the same, but the range needs to be close to the same. If you can't do that, it's not backwards compatible.

To me, what you're describing here is "fully compatible" rather than backwards compatible. Backwards compatible, as I understand it, means that earlier content can be played used the later system with minimal issues but, critically, not the reverse. For example, a PS5 is backwards compatible with a PS4, meaning that (most) PS4 games are playable on a PS5, but crucially PS5 games won't run on a PS4.

So, I expect to be able to use 5e adventures, maybe even some player options from Xanathar's / Tasha's etc, with whatever we end up getting from 1D&D with minimal effort but I'm not expecting it to be fully "mix and match".

 

[Maxperson]

The feature was always a balance neutral ribbon, the DM was encouraged to make them up.

It's not balance neutral, though. If that was their intent, they failed. The ability to requisition equipment and horses for use, means saving money and time. Getting access to a military encampment can keep you safe in game.

The other features are the same. They give you advantage in the game. That's not neutral. It's just that advantage pales compared to a feat.

 

[Parmandur]

It's not balance neutral, though. If that was their intent, they failed. The ability to requisition equipment and horses for use, means saving money and time. Getting access to a military encampment can keep you safe in game.

The other features are the same. They give you advantage in the game. That's not neutral. It's just that advantage pales compared to a feat.

Yes, story-tellijg ribbons. The PHB is at pains to point out that they are pure storytelling devices, nit game mechanics.

 

[Parmandur]

To me, what you're describing here is "fully compatible" rather than backwards compatible. Backwards compatible, as I understand it, means that earlier content can be played used the later system with minimal issues but, critically, not the reverse. For example, a PS5 is backwards compatible with a PS4, meaning that (most) PS4 games are playable on a PS5, but crucially PS5 games won't run on a PS4.

So, I expect to be able to use 5e adventures, maybe even some player options from Xanathar's / Tasha's etc, with whatever we end up getting from 1D&D with minimal effort but I'm not expecting it to be fully "mix and match".

I mean, we have already been getting stealth 1D&D books for a while, so back and forth seems perfectly doable.

 

[Maxperson]

To me, what you're describing here is "fully compatible" rather than backwards compatible. Backwards compatible, as I understand it, means that earlier content can be played used the later system with minimal issues but, critically, not the reverse. For example, a PS5 is backwards compatible with a PS4, meaning that (most) PS4 games are playable on a PS5, but crucially PS5 games won't run on a PS4.

That's what I'm saying. If I pull old content forward, it needs to be roughly equal or it's not compatible with the new content. The disparities will be made worse and few will pick the older, worse options.

So, I expect to be able to use 5e adventures, maybe even some player options from Xanathar's / Tasha's etc, with whatever we end up getting from 1D&D with minimal effort but I'm not expecting it to be fully "mix and match".

If all they mean is "Old adventures can be used" then they should say that. Backwards compatible, especially given the playtest document saying you can use old races and backgrounds, means that you need to be able to pull one or both of those things forward and be on par with the new content.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, we have already been getting stealth 1D&D books for a while, so back and forth seems perfectly doable.

I haven't allowed any of the new backgrounds because of the feat involved. It's patently unfair to any player using an old background. The back and forth is not doable, because there is significant disparity between old backgrounds and new ones. And the "fix" is to make the old backgrounds into the new ones, which means that there is no backwards compatibility at all.