D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[Garthanos]

If you can dig up the source I'd like to see it, but in my research it still isn't normal or average, even at the college/pro level. I'll agree it isn't far off, however.

Here is one source

NFL combine: Data suggests broad jump might be best indicator of running back success

The importance of the NFL combine can be overblown, but a PennLive data analysis highlighted a few trends.

www.pennlive.com

For me It is nothing like legendary.

 

[Staffan]

So, for a more concrete example, what are people's opinions on the good ol' fighting endless hordes of mooks?

Say, a level 20 Fighter with mundane gear, surrounded on all sides by normal Guards, how many should he be able to kill before going down? Ten, one hundred, thousands, millions, etc.

At least 88, and still have oomph enough for a miniboss and a real boss.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So, for a more concrete example, what are people's opinions on the good ol' fighting endless hordes of mooks?

Say, a level 20 Fighter with mundane gear, surrounded on all sides by normal Guards, how many should he be able to kill before going down? Ten, one hundred, thousands, millions, etc.

I wish I still had the sim I wrote a while ago about this VERY topic. IIRC, it ended up being hundreds depending on the build.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

The above story assumes a setting where the world is fantastic, but folks range from ordinary to strong. Some folks want a world that more resembles Marvel. Where the PCs (and I suppose their foes) are inherently extraordinary in a slightly more fantastic world then our own. They are awesome because they got bit by a spider or dipped in gods blood. They are unique and everyone else is ordinary. More importantly, they go from being challenged by goblins, to never being challenged by any number of goblins. PF2 was designed more for the "super high power" type of setting. A differentiation they specifically chose in the face of 5E and BA.

That said, I doubt WotC is going to give up on BA. That means trying to figure out what "super high power" means in a system with BA?

At least for me, the issue is really that there are two seperate standards for martials and full spell casters. And full casters already put the game into supers mode at high level. Granted it's not as prominant in 5e as 3e.

As you get to higher levels, spellcasters resemble more and more like Dr. Strange -- plentiful, no cost, reliable, powerful magic, with incredible diversity in effect. This doesn't resemble typical fantasy world magic at all -- that usually has some huge personal cost for magic power, limited spheres of effect, very limited use, etc.

Martials continue to resemble street level super heroes, maybe stretching a little higher to captain america levels if you squint a lot.

Bounded accuracy also effects full spellcasters less because many spells give advantages outside BA -- flying above the horde of goblins and raining down AOE so only ranged attackers can respond, teleporting away when down on hp, illusory dragon to drive a horde into your prismatic wall, etc. Of course if you do die, you have your clone tucked away in a demi plane right?

Not to even get into the exploration and social situations.

We already have a benchmark for what "super high power" means in a system with BA -- the high level Wizard.

 

[Garthanos]

In AD&D the "one man army" rule I do not ever think I ever seen in practice, was basically the fighter could attack up to your levels worth of zero levels in a round ie 10 for a level 10 and 20 for a level 20 presumably they weren't all directly adjacent to you and you could move between or lunge carry through them while doing that? but not sure it was all that clear.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Here is one source

NFL combine: Data suggests broad jump might be best indicator of running back success

The importance of the NFL combine can be overblown, but a PennLive data analysis highlighted a few trends.

www.pennlive.com

For me It is nothing like legendary.

FWIW, that is only running backs, and there are a LOT of other football players out there who won't be jumping so far.

Just so you know, the current world record for standing broad jump was set by a football player in the 2015 Combine. Byron Jones at a distance of 12' 2.75".

Now, that would require a STR 25 given the current ruleset. Or, you revise the ruleset:

When you make a running long jump, you can make a DC 20 Strength (Athletics) check to add your proficiency bonus to the distance jumped. For a standing long jump, you add half your proficiency bonus if you make the check.

Assuming Byron Jones has STR 20 and a +5 proficiency bonus, his maximum standing broad jump would be 12' 6".

 

[MockingBird]

Then I suggest you provide feedback for the 2024 edition. I think fighters will be tweaked like all other classes, I doubt they will be completely revised.

If there's enough demand, changes will likely happen. But sometimes the minority does not get their way, no matter how many times they call for major changes to the current design.

Or maybe I'm in the minority and there's a groundswell of support for changing the core nature of the class.

I hope the mundane fighter sticks around. Some players just want to play without all the crazy over the top stuff. I know I prefer it, then I don't feel locked into a theme created by a list of powers.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I hope the mundane fighter sticks around. Some players just want to play without all the crazy over the top stuff. I know I prefer it, then I don't feel locked into a theme created by a list of powers.

I have no problem with this. Keep it for those that want it.

Let's also have the martial that is more complex, doesn't use traditional spellcasting, and builds to 'crazy stuff' by 20th level (although no crazier than the Wizard).

Also, for those that don't want it or will never use it in their games, I would make the request of please don't try to block it, complain if it is more powerful than the mundane Fighter (but equal or less than the Wizard), or suggest what would make it "acceptable" for you when you have no intention of ever using it anyway. Let the people that want this class have the microphone and just ignore it in your games and use the mundane fighter.

As long as it doesn't break class balance amoung ALL classes, why can't both exist and people pick what they want to use?

 

[Garthanos]

FWIW, that is only running backs, and there are a LOT of other football players out there who won't be jumping so far.

Burst strength is the reason why we are measuring this and I would be willing to bet that lineman has better lift capability, whichever lift that is, and the rules do not distinguish upper vs lower also I was both a linebacker and running back at times in high school pretty sure that is the same mobility needs and we are reflecting on Strength .. Did I have an 8.25 x 2 or 16+ strength in high school? shrug we are ball parking but the point is the numbers are not legendary to me they are just too close to normal.

And yes I had come up with a similar "home hack" adding in athletics but the need for a die roll seems meh. Let em jump that far without a roll, I want legendary boom with a roll. And I do not specify distances that precisely in play

 

[Garthanos]

A demi-god bloodline might make it so you can't attune as many magic items ... basically you have an heirloom magic item in your divine heritage.