D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Vaalingrade]

That sort of melodramatic hyperbole causes me to dismiss all associated arguments, which means I may miss some interesting points.

Then show me where all the stuff in D&D Next went, please.

 

[Yaarel]

I can't speak to Beowulf, but if you take the Pen Fight from Bourne Identity, the following actions occur which have no D&D equivalent:

• Grapples a weapon / limb to prevent the use of that weapon
• Damages the opponent while disarming them
• Puts the opponent into a chokehold, depriving them of oxygen
• Escapes a grapple by damaging the grappling creature
• Uses positional leverage to gain an advantage on opposed checks
• Shoves and damages the opponent with the same attack
• Attacks when an opponent enters their reach with an unarmed strike
• Targets and disables a specific body part, preventing weapons from being wielded by it (or later, from it being used to walk)
• Knocks someone over furniture for additional damage
• Incapacitates a target via damage without having them restrained, unconscious, or dead

^All of the above is not present in D&D without DM adjudication or houserules, and that's a 90 second scene depicting a (from my understanding) fairly realistic fight between the real life equivalent of high level fighters. It's not some crazy anime kung fu stuff, it's just real stuff we as humans can do, which cannot currently be done in D&D by a 20th level fighter.

Nice list.

Most of this seems like it should be doable in 5e.

Sundering a weapon is something that should be able to happen if the target is already "bloodied", and getting sloppy.

Being at zero hit points without being unconscious or dying seems doable too: helpless without hemorrhaging.

Damage along with a push is doable.

Blocking to prevent an attack is like the dodge action or parry maneuver.

Attacked when entering melee, seems like a readied action to use a reaction.

A chokehold is damage during grappling.



In any case, I feel D&D should − with reasonably simple and intuitive mechanics − be able to represent the above combat narrative.

 

[Reynard]

'No one' being the playtesters who decided we can't have nice things.

I don't blame the playtesters, I blame the developers who have decided not to do interesting things and the legion of posters on the internet that say that WotC can do no wrong and engage in all sorts of mental contortionism to "prove" that "no one" wants king management or cool fighters or a social conflict system or a working CR system etc...

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

However, I do agree that martials should have a larger quiver of tools. And the way I personally think martial and magic should differ is that martial maneuvers shouldn’t consume rest-based resources, but instead should be gated by situational requirements, opportunity cost, or risk.

That's just slowing down the game and putting up more hoops for martials to jump through. We don't roll for the phases of the moons and planar alignment to see if casters can attempt a spell. Martials are already at the mercy of too many circumstances without the narrative control that magic offers.

I can see allowing it if the requirements are met, otherwise requiring a plot coupon resource to handwaive the middleman.

 

[Undrave]

Summoning hordes of meat shields is another option, or having an escort of zombies. Many of the summon subclasses make their horde attacks count as magical. With 1 OA per horde member, they are again stickier than PCs are, let alone dogpile grapples.

There’s not a lot of problems summoning 8 wolves can’t solve. Especially as a Sheppard Druid with the extra HP.

Thanks to bounded accuracy they can still hit enemies, especially if you send multiple of them per target so they can get their pack tactics advantage. One of them will throw that target down and grant more advantage and lock them in place. Add in some Plant Growth for battlefield flow control? Pretty strong. I stopped playing my Shepperd Druid because it was too easy and I felt like I had already used all the cool tricks and it was getting repetitive.

Wizards are "all that" even at very low levels, since their spells allow them much more flexibility than any other class in the game. I've played an illusionist for years, and I quite often find myself sitting on my hands so that I don't completely dominate even lower level adventures.

Sleep at low level is DEVASTATING when used correctly.

 

[Amros]

'No one' being the playtesters who decided we can't have nice things.

But maybe now there will be another chance to get those things, as the One D&D playtest has begun. They said they are reviewing all the stuff, classes included, so if enough people provides this feedback on the surveys, probably they'll listen.

 

[Bill Zebub]

That's just slowing down the game and putting up more hoops for martials to jump through. We don't roll for the phases of the moons and planar alignment to see if casters can attempt a spell. Martials are already at the mercy of too many circumstances without the narrative control that magic offers.

I can see allowing it if the requirements are met, otherwise requiring a plot coupon resource to handwaive the middleman.

Soooo…you want spells in everything but name?

 

[Bill Zebub]

There’s not a lot of problems summoning 8 wolves can’t solve. Especially as a Sheppard Druid with the extra HP.

I could see bringing back henchmen/hirelings for Fighters only. That would be kinda cool

 

[Undrave]

Back in 4e, Martials could target FORT and REF. I think there even was an At-will somewhere that let you trade some damage for the chance to attack REF... or FORT? Hmmm… I’ll have to check…

Anyway, Bring back NADs! Heck, bring back NADs and ditch AC, with armor only providing damage reduction!

That sort of melodramatic hyperbole causes me to dismiss all associated arguments, which means I may miss some interesting points.

I don’t think it’s a hyperbole to look back at the playtest of 5e and realize that the player base has MASSIVELY shifted since that time and that the attitude of the playtesters might not 100% reflect those current players. There’s plenty of new players that might have looked differently at stuff that got shot down back then.

 

[Reynard]

Soooo…you want spells in everything but name?

I am still trying to figure out what they want -- in game mechanics -- that martials don't have. There is all kinds of vague talk but no one has come out and explained what sort of mechanics they want. I thought it was maneuvers, which LevelUp has, but that doesn't seem to sate them.