People keep pointing out that it's extremely "vulnerable" to it because mother may I from a player plays out as a destructive & toxic protest aimed at undermining the entire gamestyle that the GM is running rather than a mere disconnect. There was a great blogpost on the alexandrian earlier pointing out a number of ways it can be done & it even notes how the problem is one that more railroady gms are unlikely to ever see or even notice it if it happens at their table.
When I said "vulnerable" I didn't mean to imply anything stronger than "prone to". Just that this is an area of concern with such rules systems (assuming it's a concern at all for the participants).
As I said, for me Mother May I is when things have gone wrong in some way. When things veer too far into GM control for the participants. Other folks have other ideas of what it means, but for me, I'd say it's something that will have gone wrong and it's something to be avoided.
People can use the term mother may I to describe games they don't like if they want (I use negative language to describe movies I don't like for example). But I think mother may I really doesn't work as a term for a style of gaming, because no one who plays in the styles that get labeled as such, uses the term. And I think it also isn't a particularly accurate term as well. What bothers me is when people invoke these kinds of terms to describe a style and act as if its an objective analysis of the style (which I don't think mother may I is at all). It is a critique. And I don't object to people leveling criticisms, but they should also understand when they wield a term that is a critique, naturally the people who disagree with them will argue and debate.
In fairness, the thread asked people to describe what the term means to them in context of 5E. Obviously, the conversation has morphed a bit as they always do... but I don't see the issue with use of Mother May I since people were specifically asked here to explain what it means to them.
I think I've been clear that for me, it's a critique. I've stated why. What I'd like to see is people who feel the critique is inaccurate actually explain why, rather than just tell me I'm wrong or that the phrase is pejorative.
What does 5E do that makes it not a case of Mother May I? I've mentioned a couple of things, but I haven't elaborated. I'd like to hear others do so. What do other games do that prevent them from becoming a case of Mother May I?
As I said before, most people who play games that rely on "GM Judgment" (such as OSR games and FKR games, or, to use the instant example, D&D and 5e) think that this is not an accurate statement. That this is simply a possible failure state of the game. Played correctly, these games (for the people that prefer them) are the best way to reliably engage in the fiction.
When we see this term, then, we know (because it's always the same, and has been since it was introduced by Mearls) that it can't stop at a description of a Bad DM; instead, it's going to be indictment on a whole section of games.
My use of "games" in that context was not about specific rules, but specific instances of games. I do think that specific rules systems may be more vulnerable to MMI than others, but I wasn't indicting any specific rules systems with that comment.
However, I play many games that rely on GM judgment. I mean, I would say that all TTRPGs rely on it to varying degrees. But I play plenty of games that come down more on the GM side as far as authority goes. I don't play any games that I'd classify as FKR, but I play 5E weekly, and have played several OSR games. I don't have a problem with the phrase in and of itself.
I mean, is there a perfect rules system? Don't all systems have drawbacks, or potential points of concern? This is just a case of that.
Yeah, there is a term. Playing the world. Or, play the world, not the rules
What is the world if not the rules? Many would say "the GM", as you did here:
DMs are responsible for the world.
But if someone said "Play the GM" you'd probably not like it because it would seem to veer very close to the idea of "Mother May I".
So what does "Play the world" mean? What advice would you give a new GM who asked that question?