D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Reynard]

Who's talking about the breadth of versatility the wizard allows?

You did. You literally said that in the post I quoted.

I'm talking about SOME effectiveness, outside of DM fiat, other than in combat.

Feats do allow some sure, but EVERY class gets those. Fighters get a few more but, if they want to keep up in their supposed best pillar (combat) they generally get used there.

As for some ideas? Well, I like expanding fighter maneuvers outside of combat (applied to skills etc.) as provided by Tasha's. But expanding the HD would be nice so it's not severely limited. The playtest looks like it has already started down this road, will see where they go with it.

Seriously, I keep saying it an no one cares but: play LevelUp.

 

[FrozenNorth]

And quite often having magic resistance and have advantage on those saves and/or legendary saves. And often having bonuses, sometimes even high bonuses on those saves. What you described is a pipe dream. There's no way that so many encounters are all going to miss saves.

8 encounters. Two were bypassed without requiring saves (the two the party bypassed with a dimension door). In one, the save was irrelevant (Fireball against multiple lower level opponents). Hypnotic Pattern and Web can trivialize an encounter even if some of the monsters make their saves.

So, three encounters in which the monsters fail a DC 17 save (possibly a DC 18 or 19 save if one or more of the characters have a magic item that boosts their DCs). That seems…pretty likely as a matter of fact.

 

[Yaarel]

If the issue is single target damage, rather than 8 attacks, the wizard can True Polymorph into something that does a great deal of damage instead, like a dragon.

Meanwhile, the poor fighter is still stymied by being unable to communicate the vizier’s plot before the wedding takes place.

Polymorph is a notoriously versatile spell.

But, the Wizard only has one slot per day. If spending it on Polymorph, the Wizard cannot do anything else with the spell slot. Including, no "get out of jail" Wish card.

The 5e slots seriously minimize what an upper tier caster can do. Sometimes I feel the critiques against the 5e Wizard are obsolete echoes of debates against the 3e CoDzilla Wizard.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't even know what you are arguing for anymore. A minute ago you wanted to be able to rip arms off enemies and now you want the fighter to be king. You keep shifting the goal posts and taking every counter point as a remonstration of your preferences.

No, I'm not. You simply can't seem to wrap your head around the idea that I think fighters should be able to do both well.

I know, radical concept, given how narrow and limited some of the other classes, like wizard, are. You seem like you're afraid that my idea of adding some versatility to fighters would make fighters so OP that they overshadow the wizard. Let me assure you that, short of absolutely massive nerfs to the wizard (which I'm not an advocate of), that could never conceivably happen. All I'm looking to do is narrow the divide a bit.

 

[Maxperson]

8 encounters. Two were bypassed without requiring saves (the two the party bypassed with a dimension door). In one, the save was irrelevant (Fireball against multiple lower level opponents). Hypnotic Pattern and Web can trivialize an encounter even if some of the monsters make their saves.

No. Two encounters were white room bypassed. The reality is that either you are out in the open after your dimension door, in which case they see you and can chase you or you are teleporting blind in a dungeon or other dense terrain and are likely to end up in something solid and all of you take damage and fight anyway. You have to get lucky or have a lot of foreknowledge of the fight and terrain to get away like that.

 

[Mort]

You did. You literally said that in the post I quoted.

Seriously, I keep saying it an no one cares but: play LevelUp.

I have level up and am impressed by many of the changes.

But we are currently talking about the WoTC D&D fighter.

And before you say "never happen" it's already started to. Tasha's dipped a toe in the water with out of combat maneuvers. And it certainly looks like the playtest is also moving in that direction with more (and earlier) feat options along with more specific benefits and choices for fighters - we'll see how that goes.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Awesome. Encumbrance and bulk are things, so a wizard carrying around 6 swords, which he can only get one out round, is awesome! So he uses his action to become a Maralith and pulls out one sword. The next round he pulls out a second sword and either attacks twice or spends his action to get a third sword. Round 3 he either attacks 3 times with swords, or spends his action to pull out a 5th sword. Round 4 he can actually attack with 6 swords if he hasn't attack yet. Otherwise he's still pulling out swords. And that's if he didn't trip over them and die earlier in the dungeon.

You’re strawmanning, and it isn’t a good look.

The wizard could carry 7 swords on a tenser’s floating disk without spending a spell slot, or you know, invest in a mule. Since the spell lasts an hour, they can transform upon before engaging in combat.

But what if the party is ambushed ? Then the wizard can use a different approach. The point wasn’t that turning into a marilith was a be-all and end-all, it’s that the wizard can do something that is even as quintessentials fighter as attack 8 times in two turns, while the fighter can’t even start to approach that versatility.

 

[Mort]

You have to get lucky or have a lot of foreknowledge of the fight and terrain to get away like that.

Hmm, If only the wizard had a few options to ensure they had prior knowledge of any terrain the group was about to go into!

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Misty Step is a nice one, but prior to 18th level it relies on limited spell slots and so the vast majority of the time it is used to get away from enemies. At 18th-20th level, sure if the wizard has picked that spell, he can use it for getting across a chasm instead of jumping, but I don't think that something that is only achievable at 18th+ level is really something that causes a wizard to overshadow the fighter.

But isn't that the issue? Low level Wizards and low level fighters coexist pretty well. It's at high levels that the fighter stalls and the wizard only gets even more powerful.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Why is the fighter not fighting whatever the wizard is fighting? And how does your white room wizard always have exactly the right spell memorized?

Again. This is the post that prompted this line of discussion.

here is a question that I think is important in the discussion: is there something a high level character of ANY class but particularly a martial class that a high level wizard cannot replicate and/or do just as well or better?

You responded that the fighter could attack 8 times for two consecutive rounds.

I responded that a wizard could also do that by true polymorphing into a marilith and having their familiar attack for the 8th attack. I then pointed out that the converse was not true: there is quite a lot that a wizard can do that a fighter would have no chance to replicate.

You ignored this and shifted the goalposts. Instead, you argued that the marilith would do less damage without 8 scimitars (@EzekielRaiden pointed out that this point was debatable).

I then pointed out that if what mattered was damage, not number of attacks, the wizard could true polymorph into a different creature that did more damage than a marilith.

You responded by claiming Schroedinger’s wizard, despite a single, versatile spell being used.