D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Shadowedeyes]

Polymorph is a notoriously versatile spell.

But, the Wizard only has one slot per day. If spending it on Polymorph, the Wizard cannot do anything else with the spell slot. Including, no "get out of jail" Wish card.

The 5e slots seriously minimize what an upper tier caster can do. Sometimes I feel the critiques against the 5e Wizard are obsolete echoes of debates against the 3e CoDzilla Wizard.

I dunno. I've played in a game with a high level wizard. He was definitely the big gun of solving issues, even compared to my cleric and the druid in the party. I will note that magic items probably favored the wizard, although the druid had a really powerful boon granted by an archfey, so it muddies the waters in using it as an example.

 

[Yaarel]

One thing that annoys me in all D&D editions about the Wizard is the ability to learn ANY spell. (And yes, even the 5e Wish spell can heal better than a Cleric can!)

This derives from old school, when the Wizard (namely Magic-User) was THE spellcaster. It covered any spellcasting concept, from sorcerer to enchanter to witch. So it could cast any spell.

In new school, the spellcaster has evolved and radiated into different kinds of spellcasters: Bard, Druid, Psion, Artificer, Sorcerer, Warlock, etcetera.

The entire D&D spell list divides up into about thirteen different spell themes.

I wish the Wizard would have a narrower focus and be more specialized in which kinds of magic the Wizard specializes in. I want this thematic focus for the sake of flavor. But it can also reduce the extreme versatility of the Wizard.

Suppose.

At level 1, the Wizard must choose only two out of these thirteen spell themes. Some might want Necromancy and Fire spells, some might want Enchantment and Force spells.

At each higher tier, the Wizard can select one more theme: at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17. By level 17 that totals six themes, almost half the spell themes in D&D. But not all of them. Perhaps the Wizard only gains new themes at level 9 and 17, totaling only four themes by the Legend tier.

When gaining new spells at each level, the Wizard can only gain spells from one of these known themes. These are the themes that the Wizard has affinity with − a knack for.

If the DM wants, the DM can allow the Wizard to find and figure out how to use other spells that are beyond the known themes. But the DM has control over which spells the Wizard can find. Meanwhile, the gain of spells while leveling still keep up the thematic flavor.

 

[Maxperson]

The wizard could carry 7 swords on a tenser’s floating disk without spending a spell slot, or you know, invest in a mule. Since the spell lasts an hour, they can transform upon before engaging in combat.

Right, because casting the disk 16 times a day to carry them around is going to happen, and a mule will fit easily into a dungeon. I mean, attack the humor portion of the post as a strawman all you want, it's still not going to put 6 swords into the wizard's hands for multiple rounds after casting the spell. By the time the wizard is attacking 7 times with 6 swords and a tail, the fight is probably over because the fighter killed it.

But what if the party is ambushed ? Then the wizard can use a different approach. The point wasn’t that turning into a marilith was a be-all and end-all, it’s that the wizard can do something that is even as quintessentials fighter as attack 8 times in two turns, while the fighter can’t even start to approach that versatility.

It's white room versatility though, predicated on the wizard at all times having exactly what he needs for any given situation both in and out of combat. The reality of wizard play is very different. Sometimes they have the thing they need, often they don't.

 

[Yaarel]

I dunno. I've played in a game with a high level wizard. He was definitely the big gun of solving issues, even compared to my cleric and the druid in the party. I will note that magic items probably favored the wizard, although the druid had a really powerful boon granted by an archfey, so it muddies the waters in using it as an example.

In my experience, the list of magic items tends to suck for the Wizard class.

For example, items that empower spellcasting by imposing a disadvantage on saving throws, are rare. Even to increase the DC is rare. Even just to increase damage is rare. Even just to add the ability bonus to damage in the class itself is rare.

There are many − MOST − magic items that the Fighter class enjoys, that I wish there was an equivalent for the Wizard class.

 

[Maxperson]

But isn't that the issue? Low level Wizards and low level fighters coexist pretty well. It's at high levels that the fighter stalls and the wizard only gets even more powerful.

Again, jump isn't where the fighter stalls. Nor is combat at any level. Yes the fighter needs more exploration and social ability, but those two things aren't the problem.

 

[Yaarel]

No, I'm not. You simply can't seem to wrap your head around the idea that I think fighters should be able to do both well.

I know, radical concept, given how narrow and limited some of the other classes, like wizard, are. You seem like you're afraid that my idea of adding some versatility to fighters would make fighters so OP that they overshadow the wizard. Let me assure you that, short of absolutely massive nerfs to the wizard (which I'm not an advocate of), that could never conceivably happen. All I'm looking to do is narrow the divide a bit.

I mentioned this earlier.

Every class, including the Wizard and Cleric, needs to be able to contribute to the combat pillar roughly equally.

Therefore, also.

Every class, especially the Fighter, needs to be able to contribute to the social pillar and the exploration pillar, roughly equally.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

In my experience, the list of magic items tends to suck for the Wizard class.

For example, items that empower spellcasting by imposing a disadvantage on saving throws, are rare. Even just to increase damage is rare. Even just to add the ability bonus to damage in the class itself is rare.

There are many − MOST − magic items that the Fighter class enjoys, that I wish there was an equivalent for the Wizard class.

I agree. In this specific game however, I think the wizard got a jackpot though in terms of items.

 

[FrozenNorth]

No. Two encounters were white room bypassed. The reality is that either you are out in the open after your dimension door, in which case they see you and can chase you or you are teleporting blind in a dungeon or other dense terrain and are likely to end up in something solid and all of you take damage and fight anyway. You have to get lucky or have a lot of foreknowledge of the fight and terrain to get away like that.

Nope, not white room. This is something that actually happened. The specific case was that the party was out in the open, but dimension doored next to a portal and then went through on the next turn.

Of course, there are many other reasons why dimension door could bypass one or more fights.

• The characters know the area, so 500 ft outside is sufficient to bypass the combat;
• The creatures are hostile to intruders, but aren’t inclined to follow them;
• the pressing issue is a third matter, such as a collapsing lair, so while the parties will fight if in proximity to each other, the enemies are unlike to waste turns trying to find an escaping quarry.

 

[Maxperson]

Again. This is the post that prompted this line of discussion.

You responded that the fighter could attack 8 times for two consecutive rounds.

I responded that a wizard could also do that by true polymorphing into a marilith and having their familiar attack for the 8th attack. I then pointed out that the converse was not true: there is quite a lot that a wizard can do that a fighter would have no chance to replicate.

You ignored this and shifted the goalposts. Instead, you argued that the marilith would do less damage without 8 scimitars (@EzekielRaiden pointed out that this point was debatable).

Point out facts that negate an idea is not shifting the goalposts.

I then pointed out that if what mattered was damage, not number of attacks, the wizard could true polymorph into a different creature that did more damage than a marilith.

Someone pointed out dragon, but an ancient white dragon would struggle to do as much single target damage as a fighter with feats.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I don't think it is a bad idea to have mystical warriors with strange powers. 5E is full of such archetypes available to play. I don't understand why folks who want special powers with their sword and board grog don't play one of those instead of demanding that the fighter turns into a demigod.

Because there isn't a demigod class. Give me one that can whirlwind attack by level 5 and throw a cow over a barn by level 10, produce a strength/dex/con themed Limited Wish by 13, and you can keep the chump fighter.