D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Yaarel]

Hmm, If only the wizard had a few options to ensure they had prior knowledge of any terrain the group was about to go into!

These are high level divination spells − that burn up slots − or require the Wizard to already be "familiar" with the location in the first place.

 

[Maxperson]

Nope, not white room. This is something that actually happened. The specific case was that the party was out in the open, but dimension doored next to a portal and then went through on the next turn.

Of course, there are many other reasons why dimension door could bypass one or more fights.

• The characters know the area, so 500 ft outside is sufficient to bypass the combat;
• The creatures are hostile to intruders, but aren’t inclined to follow them;
• the pressing issue is a third matter, such as a collapsing lair, so while the parties will fight if in proximity to each other, the enemies are unlike to waste turns trying to find an escaping quarry.

And reasons that you can't bypass it.

They have something you need.
You're supposed to take them out.
There's a dimensional anchor in the room

It's white room, because you're presenting only exactly what you need to enable you to avoid an encounter and then being like, "Aha! See! Spellcasters will avoid 2 encounters a day!" I mean, hell, you specifically made one a trickery cleric in order to white room that encounter a way.

The reality of gameplay is that sort of avoidance is possible, but not something that is even remotely reliable.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The psion and witch are a different issue from the non-magic warlord and non-magic fighter.

With the warlord and fighter, the issue is that they want abilities that cannot exist except with a supernatural origin, but don't want them to be supernatural. That would create a disconnect where the fluff and crunch do not match.

Not one single thing the 4E warlord did was supernatural. It simulated actions and outcomes you'd see in action movies. People's stupid strawman of "shouting a hand back on" was nonsense. You don't lose limbs or even suffer permanent injuries from HP loss.

 

[Cadence]

Not one single thing the 4E warlord did was supernatural. It simulated actions and outcomes you'd see in action movies. People's stupid strawman of "shouting a hand back on" was nonsense. You don't lose limbs or even suffer permanent injuries from HP loss.

Hit points seem to have been a combination of actual physical stuff (albeit not limb loss!) and mental/fatigue stuff across most editions. Anything that treats it all one way or the other feels like it gets even smooshier around the edges. (Which is no small feat given how smooshy of a concept they already are!)

 

[Reynard]

No, I'm not. You simply can't seem to wrap your head around the idea that I think fighters should be able to do both well.

I know, radical concept, given how narrow and limited some of the other classes, like wizard, are. You seem like you're afraid that my idea of adding some versatility to fighters would make fighters so OP that they overshadow the wizard. Let me assure you that, short of absolutely massive nerfs to the wizard (which I'm not an advocate of), that could never conceivably happen. All I'm looking to do is narrow the divide a bit.

First, let me apologize for upping the temperature. That doesn't help in the discussion, which I promise I am really interested in.

What I am having trouble wrapping my head around, I think, is what you specifically mean by "versatility." I think I came in with the wrong impression believing you meant "versatile just like the wizard in combat" and I don't think that's what you meant. So let's back up and start again.

Assuming we are talking about high level aka mythic fighters from legend and fiction, what are the core traits you associate with those figures that you want to emulate that simultaneously puts them on par with wizards ? Obviously strength of arms -- fighters should be the ones that fight the best. It's in the name. This should include, I take it, some limited use big guns (aka tear a giant's arm off). Next, they are almost always depicted as having superhuman strength and stamina -- not always superman levels, but certainly MCU Captain America levels. Maybe a feature where they get expertise in Athletics? Or they increase things life lifting capacity, jump distance, and movement speed? Finally you mentioned leader of men qualities. Do you mean having "summons" available in the form of soldiers, or warden like inspiration abilities or?

 

[Yaarel]

Not one single thing the 4E warlord did was supernatural. It simulated actions and outcomes you'd see in action movies. People's stupid strawman of "shouting a hand back on" was nonsense. You don't lose limbs or even suffer permanent injuries from HP loss.

Yeah. There are no broken bones in D&D.

No Cleric has ever healed a broken bone.

A 5e Warlord can easily restore any non-zero damage.

Even at zero, the 5e Warlord can help as a medic.

 

[FrozenNorth]

It's white room versatility though, predicated on the wizard at all times having exactly what he needs for any given situation both in and out of combat. The reality of wizard play is very different. Sometimes they have the thing they need, often they don't.

How am I doing that? This isn’t Schroedinger’s wizard, it is a wizard using a single spell!

If anything, I can understand why wizards seem weak in your games, because they seem to be incapable of using any forethought whatsoever. They would think into a marilith on the first round of combat and waste seven rounds arming themselves is good strategy.

Meanwhile, the poor fighter is puzzling over how to warn the king about the vizier’s plot.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Again, jump isn't where the fighter stalls. Nor is combat at any level. Yes the fighter needs more exploration and social ability, but those two things aren't the problem.

I do think separating combat from our discussion for the moment is a good idea. On jump, I think it does actually connect to stalling, in a sense. Let me try to elaborate.

At 1st level, our fighter has 16 strength, and by the rules can jump 16 feet(with a running start). At 4th level, this increases to 18 feet thanks to an ASI. At 6th, we now have 20 feet. And since we are a champion subclass fighter, at 7th we go up to 25 feet (Although I think by the rules this only matters if we somehow have 35 ft of movement). There is no increase after that, we hit our peak barely past 1/4th the total class levels we can take. Social/Exploration suffers because we don't get anything in those areas past the early game, while presumably the challenges we face will get harder.

 

[Cadence]

Yeah. There are no broken bones in D&D.

Broken ribs seem optional. Does magical healing in 5e mend broken bones? ?

Anyway, so, a character who wants to replicate Rorschach in Watchmen breaking people's fingers during questioning can't do it? Or they only heal naturally and a cleric can't help?

 

[Maxperson]

Not one single thing the 4E warlord did was supernatural. It simulated actions and outcomes you'd see in action movies. People's stupid strawman of "shouting a hand back on" was nonsense. You don't lose limbs or even suffer permanent injuries from HP loss.

While the shouting the hand back on was hyperbole, it doesn't change that a lot of people view instant healing from another PC as magical. Some are okay with encouragement restoring hit points that being bitten by a monster remove, others are not. I don't know 4e, so I really don't have a strong opinion, but I do vaguely recall the arguments. Can the warlord healing abilities be used on an unconscious ally?