D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Mort]

These are high level divination spells − that burn up slots − or require the Wizard to already be "familiar" with the location in the first place.

Find familiar is a 1st level ritual with great utility on this front. Barely any resource cost whatever.

Arcane eye is mid level at best and will map out an area at little risk. Plus if the wizard is a divination wizard, they get some slots back just for casting it. It requires no knowledge of the terrain.

scrying is 5th and does require SOME knowledge but it's not fully essential (though it will make the save harder).

If time is not a factor, they scout 1 day and do what they need to do the next. Resource cost averted.

And no one is saying there's no resource cost, just that the Wizard has many options and the fighter has few-none.

 

[FrozenNorth]

An Eldritch Knight could know the Sending spell, since it's evocation. Probably not a great pick for his limited spells, but he has something (that he had to steal from the Wizard anyway).

True, an Eldritch knight could do this at 13th level, when he sets Sending.

 

[Cadence]

I have no intention of discussing hit points or warlords. I'm just curious if they could do that or not.

You might not have, but I did... and was choosing discretion as the better part for a change

 

[Maxperson]

Except, you’re the one who is whiterooming here. You’re coming up with reasons why a certain approach wouldn’t work, and assuming a party would do it anyway.

Yes! I'm assuming a normal game play wizard, rather than one that always has exactly the correct spell in the exact situation needed, and whose enemies don't always miss every save. I'm the white room person here.

My point was that in an 11th level party with a bard, cleric and wizard, there are enough high level spell slots that the fighter will be overshadowed even without the party using up all of its spells.

And you continuously supply shady reasons for it, which is why I reject them with how actual game play goes.

Aha! You responded! Dimension door doesn’t allow you to bypass fights!

I said it could, in those rare instances where the party has complete knowledge of the area sufficient to teleport out of sight and not end up in something solid.

There are a lot of spells, some as early as 2nd level, that trivialize combat.

This is false. Those are spells that might trivialize combat if everything aligns correct, including a missed save.

Throw enough spells at the problem, and the fighter is going to feel pretty useless.

Throw enough spells at the problem to do that and the fighter is going to have to carry the spellcasters in the later combats.

 

[Maxperson]

You might not have, but I did... and was choosing discretion as the better part for a change

Oh! I thought you were making a joke about HP/Warlord threads.

 

[FrozenNorth]

And funny enough, always the exact spell they need in the exact situation to best use it.

A single versatile spell that many high-level wizards memorize.

So now my shooting down the bad ideas put forth here by people who are not my players constitutes my players being bad at playing spellcasters? Man, your arguments just get better and better!

You’re not shooting down bad ideas, you are assuming, in the absence of any evidence whatsoever, that other people’s ideas would be badly implemented.

Note thst your argument against Tenser’s floating disk (a ritual spell) was “it would have to be cast a bunch of times”.

He could just tell the king. If you can white room things, so can I. The king is just down the hall and the fighter walks there.

So, you’re relying on DM fiat. Not terribly convincing.

 

[Cadence]

Oh! I thought you were making a joke about HP/Warlord threads.

Those threads aren't a joke. ::: glare ::::

;-)

 

[Zubatcarteira]

For the thread title, they're definitely overtuned. Mostly okay at level low levels, with some really bs spells mixed in like Sleep and Web, but definitely manageable. As you level up though, it's just ridiculous, contingencies, Clone spell, Simulacrum buddy, True Polymorphing the Simulacrum, Planar Binding an army of elementals, etc, and a lot of lower level spells stay powerful. Too many spells are overpowered and not well thought out at all, I'd go the nerf hammer route.

 

[Mort]

This is false. Those are spells that might trivialize combat if everything aligns correct, including a missed save.

An eloquence bard in the party greatly mitigates this problem!

Their ability to lower opponents saves REALLY helps spells land when needed - short of legendary resistance (but even helps that go down too).

 

[FrozenNorth]

And you continuously supply shady reasons for it, which is why I reject them with how actual game play goes.

Not sure what constitutes “shady reasons” in this context.

I’m pointing out that a party with three full casters and a fighter can overshadow a fighter, even on a 6-8 encounter day, simply because they have so many high level spell slots.

At level 11, that is 9 4th level, 7 5th level slots and 3 6th level slots. 5th and 6th level spell slots are “trivialize” encounter level spells.

And again, if a day has fewer than 8 encounters, the gap is wider.

Throw enough spells at the problem to do that and the fighter is going to have to carry the spellcasters in the later combats.

Except he isn’t. Even at 8 encounters, the spellscasters are still slinging level 4 spells.