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D&D (2024) Playtest: Is the Human Terrible?

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
You identified four "problems"

1) Humans can't get feats to start with an 18. Not a rules issue that needs updating, this is the change for 1st level feats.
So...you need to remake your character and it's no longer compatible with these rules, right?
2) Critical hits. Explicitly part of the playtest they may not keep. They've said that. I think pointing out these issues is important for showing why this rule may need to not be kept in the final version
Granted. I can only analyze what they put out.
3) Grapple issue. This is a fundamental change, but one that is pretty easy to fix. I literally just did this for plasmoids earlier today. They have advantage on rolls to escape and grant disadvantage against people they are grappling. Fairly easy fix.
Yes, not too hard a fix. Will they issue errata?
4) Changes to short rests. This has been something changing over the last few books, so it isn't even an OD&D problem, as much as it is a pre- and post-Tasha's problem.
It's going to require a lot of updates, and it's unclear they will update non-core books.
So, with these as our examples....

Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide -> Nothing you listed applies. No rules changes needed.
Xanathar's Guide to Everything -> #2 for one ability of one class, for a rule they may not keep
Every feat needs an update, in the very least giving it a feat level.
Tasha's Cauldron of everything -> #2 for one ability of one class, for a rule they may not keep, maybe a handful of #3's
All the feats. All of them.
Guikdmaster's Guide to Ravnica -> Nothing not already covered by the above
Eberron Rising from the Last War -> Nothing applies
Explorer's Guide to Wildemount -> Don't think anything applies, haven't read it in a while
Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron -> Nothing that isn't covered by the above
Mythic Odysseys of Theros -> Don't think anything applies, haven't read it in a while
Strixhaven -> Don't think anything applies, haven't read it in a while
Spelljammer -> #3 for a single race

So... most of these books don't even need a rewrite. Most of the actualy things that need changed is grappling. Which can be trivially accomplished by a single line of text in the PHB

"If you have advantage on strength saves and strength ability checks, you have advantage on rolls to escape grapples and grant disadvantage against people to escape your grapples"

And BOOM. Everything except plasmoid is fixed.
Every feat in all those books needs updating.
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yes, they will need to be. ANY feat in any book right now is not compatible without an update or errata, for example. And that's from ONE playtest.

If you disagree, what feat level is Elven Accuracy for example? It's not a PHB feat so not currently slated for a playtest revamp.
It doesn’t have to have a level to be compatible, actually. As it is right now, level 1 backgrounds and Humans grant a level 1 feat. That has no effect on feats with no level, except that you can’t take them at level 1. 🤷‍♂️
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It doesn’t have to have a level to be compatible, actually. As it is right now, level 1 backgrounds and Humans grant a level 1 feat. That has no effect on feats with no level, except that you can’t take them at level 1. 🤷‍♂️
If they do not assign levels to every feat in 5e, the systems are incompatible. 5.5e wants you to take feats that are level appropriate and 5e doesn't have levels.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I am saying if you right now attempt to play the playtest rules along with your existing PCs, they will immediately need a house rule to make some of them work.

Here's some more.

You have a Variant Human or Custom Lineage feat that is a half-feat with a bonus to an ability score so you could start with an 18 in that stat at first level. Not compatible with these playtest rules.
Designed with a somewhat different ethos =\= incompatible. The new feats don’t have +1’s on level 1 feats, and the new races require level 1 feats specifically. That’s it.
Adamantine Armor - Does nothing now.
Like I suggested upthread, crits are either gonna have more context or a new general rule that makes stuff that effects monster crits work still, or the new crit rules won’t stick. 🤷‍♂️

Why not just playtest in the spirit of the playtest and provide feedback about what you think of the crit rules?
Spore Druid Fungal Body class feature (14th lev) - Most important part of it now does nothing, and there is no easy house rule to address that. And as it's from a supplement, and we have no indication they will be updating every subclass in every supplement, it may just end up staying that way.
Except for the explicit statements that every 5e supplement with be compatible with the new core books.
Grave Cleric Sentinel at Death’s Door class feature (6th level) - does nothing now, there is no easy house rule to address that, and as it's a supplement may never seen an update.
The idea that Xanathar’s won’t get an update pass if any issues make it through the playtest to print is laughable. Theros? Maybe. Essentially no one cares if a given supernatural gift has a rules issue if used with a later product. But Xanathar’s and Tasha’s are going to be fully compatible.
The grapple issue impacts raging barbarians, rune knights using giants might, heck even the plasmoid from Spelljammer release literally the same week as these playtest rules has an ability that is no longer compatible with these rules.
The idea that the final wording of the new grapple rules won’t solve the “ability checks to grapple” issue is…laughable.
We have a TON of issues with short rests being phased to be only for hit dice recovery and not for restoring certain powers on a short rest.
This isn’t an incompatibility with anything they’ve shown us so far, and the fact short rests still exist tells us that they…aren’t looking to get rid of them. Hypotheticals aren’t incompatibilities.
All those things in books outside the core 3, we have no reason to believe they're all going to get updated. So they're directly in contradiction to the new core philosophy of not encouraging short rests for regeneration of powers.
That isn’t a rule. 🤷‍♂️

What your trying to prop up as incompatible is…already extant in 5e.
Clockwork sorcerer chooses from certain spell lists which may no longer exist once they shift to arcane, divine and primal spell lists.
They have explicitly said that the classes and subclasses with have their own ways of accessing spell lists. The only reason to read that as “class spell lists won’t exist anymore at all” is that one has assumed the conclusion that it will be incompatible.
And this is just the first playtest package of 11-17 more monthly packages. My greatest concern is for all those supplements that are not the core 3. We know they will replace the core 3, but will they offer an update or errata for all the other books or just leave them behind like they did for 3e when 3.5e came out? I think it's reasonable to assume the later.
I think it’s patently absurd to assume the latter.

It requires ignoring the last decade, and the very significant shift in focus and design ethos between 5e and all previous wotc editions, at the publishing level. It’s even more nonsensical than the doomsaying in the VTT thread.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
If they do not assign levels to every feat in 5e, the systems are incompatible. 5.5e wants you to take feats that are level appropriate and 5e doesn't have levels.
If there is not a rule that requires that all feats chosen have a level, then there is no incompatibility. We have not seen the “choose a feat or an ASI” rules language for classes, yet.

“5.5e”, if it ever exists, certainly doesn’t yet.

If the post-level-one feat gain language requires a leveled feat, they’ll get feedback that this is a problem, and either be like “hey don’t worry we are gonna reprint updated feats” or otherwise deal with the issue.

“You cannot gain a feat that you do not meet the prerequisites or level for” does not mean that a feat has to have a level in order to work in the system. It just means that the background rules don’t allow you to take anything but a level 1 feat. That’s it.
 

Branduil

Hero
This is really more about Feats in 5e than anything else. The two big truisms about Feats in this edition are

#1) There are several feats which are so powerful that they are essentially must-haves for certain character concepts
#2) There is a heavy, heavy cost to acquiring those feats for non-humans

Vumans bypass #2 entirely, and all they have to give up is weird situational stuff like a saving throw against being charmed or burping fire a couple times a day. 1D&D seems to equalizing the costs for #2, it remains to be seen if they do anything about #1.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
This is really more about Feats in 5e than anything else. The two big truisms about Feats in this edition are

#1) There are several feats which are so powerful that they are essentially must-haves for certain character concepts
#2) There is a heavy, heavy cost to acquiring those feats for non-humans

Vumans bypass #2 entirely, and all they have to give up is weird situational stuff like a saving throw against being charmed or burping fire a couple times a day. 1D&D seems to equalizing the costs for #2, it remains to be seen if they do anything about #1.
Well the issue @Mistwell and @Maxperson are presumably referencing is that the rules text for the playtest feat section says “Level. Each Feat has a level. To take a Feat, your level must equal or exceed the Feat’s level.”

But the document is explicitly not a test of the complete game, and is explicitly meant to be used with the 2014 PHB. This means that when you hit level 4 fighter, you can choose any feat that you could if not using the playtest, because the specific class feature which grants a feat is what governs your options.

All the actual books have to do in 2024, assuming no meaningful changes to the ideas presented in the current UA, is word the feat-granting class features of the updated classes to say soemthing like, “you can only gain a feat for which you qualify”.

But right now? There is no conflict. If you want to play a 2014 phb variant human monk with the feat from Tasha’s to get Unarmed Fighting Style and the updated Tavern Brawler feat from playtest background, that is 100% legal while playtest these UA rules.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
It doesn’t have to have a level to be compatible, actually. As it is right now, level 1 backgrounds and Humans grant a level 1 feat. That has no effect on feats with no level, except that you can’t take them at level 1. 🤷‍♂️
You make a new character using the new rules. You will never be able to choose a feat from any book prior to the new PHB, because they won't have a level and all your abilities to gain a new feat will specify a level. That will happen the moment they release the playtest classes. We both know that already - Crawford already said that.

They will have to update or errata all old feats if they intend to make this revision backwards compatible. There is no getting around that.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well the issue @Mistwell and @Maxperson are presumably referencing is that the rules text for the playtest feat section says “Level. Each Feat has a level. To take a Feat, your level must equal or exceed the Feat’s level.”

But the document is explicitly not a test of the complete game, and is explicitly meant to be used with the 2014 PHB. This means that when you hit level 4 fighter, you can choose any feat that you could if not using the playtest, because the specific class feature which grants a feat is what governs your options.
That's our entire point. The UA rules require level to be considered. Every feat in the 2014 game has no level attached and either they will update every feat in every book, which they've never done in the past despite saying they would make all the books backwards compatible, or they don't and there is no compatibility.

Their track record on this is bad and I have no reason to think it will change with this new half edition.

Also, the 2014 feats are not supposed to be used with this UA's playtesting. The UA says the following, "The material here uses the rules in the 2014 Player’s Handbook, except where noted." Then it goes on to note Character Races, Character Backgrounds, Starting Languages, Feats and the Rules Glossary.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
That's our entire point. The UA rules require level to be considered. Every feat in the 2014 game has no level attached and either they will update every feat in every book, which they've never done in the past despite saying they would make all the books backwards compatible, or they don't and there is no compatibility.

Their track record on this is bad and I have no reason to think it will change with this new half edition.

Also, the 2014 feats are not supposed to be used with this UA's playtesting. The UA says the following, "The material here uses the rules in the 2014 Player’s Handbook, except where noted." Then it goes on to note Character Races, Character Backgrounds, Starting Languages, Feats and the Rules Glossary.
To be fair, the 2014 PHB says you donned to use the Feats section at all. :p
 

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