D&D (2024) Postmortem: 10 Ideas in 5e that didn't quite work...

Do remember though that each class has a primary attribute and a secondary based on subclass in 4e
deep inhale True. It's been like a dozen years... But now it's coming back, A shape classes (one primary stat, powers use different secondary stats) and V shape classes (two different attack stats, but one secondary for both, like melee cleric is str+cha, while lazer cleric is wis+cha)...
 

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
With the push towards point buy as a "balanced" (heh) method of determining ability scores, while still pushing players to have high ability scores in things important to their class, you're going to have dump stats. Taking steps to make that less damning to the player was then kind of necessary.

I've seen players who tried to not dump things with point buy, and ended up with 14's in everything. And then struggled as a result, failing when other characters succeeded. Even if, mathematically, it was only failing another 5-10% of the time, the moments when their lower scores let them down outweighed the moments when their non-dump stats mattered, and they were miserable as a result.

D&D has always been a game where specialization is rewarded more than generalization, after all.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Huh, I didn't think of it as lazy at all. It went a long way towards making all ability scores equally viable, I thought. I mean, I would think having 6 saves was equally lazy, especially with the way those 6 saves were then used, with three being "major" saves, and the other three being "well, this might happen sometimes". A case might be made for Strength saves, but those could have just been Str checks (as was pointed out previously).
Problem is the 4e defense doesn't really make all stats important, in fact, it does the opposite. Based on class, a few stats really matter, the rest don't. I dont think 5E went far enough making all stats matter to all characters.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
deep inhale True. It's been like a dozen years... But now it's coming back, A shape classes (one primary stat, powers use different secondary stats) and V shape classes (two different attack stats, but one secondary for both, like melee cleric is str+cha, while lazer cleric is wis+cha).
Sorry, was the trip down memory lane painful? While I had overall positive memories of 4e, I know that's not universally true.
 



James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Problem is the 4e defense doesn't really make all stats important, in fact, it does the opposite. Based on class, a few stats really matter, the rest don't. I dont think 5E went far enough making all stats matter to all characters.
Well no. It makes them closer to being equally important when building your character, but obviously not in play. And even then, you ran into issues-

Str gives you carry capacity. Con gives you healing surges and a few more hit points.

Dex gives you initiative. Int does not.

Cha gives you social skills. Wis gives you...Perception and Insight.

But I don't think any edition has ever managed to make all 6 ability scores equally viable. I mean, when I started playing in AD&D, Charisma didn't really do a lot by itself. Sure, it came up more at level 9 and up, when you're doing the base building thing (IF your game was doing that), and presumably it would matter if people were using the NPC reaction rules (which I never saw anyone use, but that's my own experience).

And it really hasn't gotten much better, other than, now there's incentive to have high Charisma for a few classes (technically Paladins and 2e Bards wanted Charisma, as well as a couple of specialty Wizards, but that was just a prerequisite, it didn't actually fuel any features).

Proficiency bonus matters more than ability bonuses even now, so it doesn't take much to be a face other than proficiency in Persuasion (and there's a few ways to get expertise on top of it).

To truly make all six ability scores equally useful, the game would have to use derived secondary characteristics, which is a layer of complexity I don't think the majority of D&D players want.
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
Versatile is for small sized characters, basically. Not defending it, but that's basically what it's for. A halfling can use a longsword in both hands to get a d10 without disadvantage.
Monks also benefit from the versatility of quarterstaves (and longswords if kensei).
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
On the subject of saves. I think it would be best to add proficiency bonus to all saves, to avoid being completely unable to pass a saving throw (though the new nat20 will help a little on that).
This would be nice, but I don't see it happening, sadly. The designers want each class to have weak points, and a lot of DM's feel the same, I think.

It's not a huge problem in 1-10 play that I've noticed, which are the levels most people play the game at. It's 11+ where the issue lies with saves, and well, high level play has always been a weak point of D&D.
 


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