D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Fanaelialae]

I’m so glad you asked!

No, I’m not saying it’s “ok as long as everybody gets to play” I’m saying that describing it as “Manning, Perry, and a bunch of guys watching from the bench” is hyperbolic.

Now, it’s fair to say that there were a handful of players (and one head coach) who got all the fame and glory, and a bunch more who were excellent players and were vital to the team, but who didn’t become household names or pick up as many lucrative sponsorships.

Assuming that the complaints about wizards expressed in this thread are true, I think this version of the football story is a better analogy: the Fighter isn’t sitting on the bench watching, they are making a vital contribution. Maybe not as much, and not as flashy, as the wizard (again, assuming the critiques are accurate) but very much contributing.

And it’s also totally fair to say, “I don’t want to be in the shadow of the superstar! Contributing almost as much isn’t fun for me!” I don’t personally feel that way, but if you do that’s completely valid.

In other words, I don’t think the analogy has to be taken to an exaggerated extreme to make a valid point. And doing so doesn’t persuade anybody; it just gets people who already agree to keep agreeing.

Yeah, that's fair.

I do think that generally it is the case that everyone plays a relevant function, though the QB usually gets the glory.

Although there have absolutely been numerous times when everyone else was effectively on the sidelines watching, so I don't really consider it all THAT hyperbolic. But I will grant that it certainly isn't the case all of the time.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Yeah, that's fair.

I do think that generally it is the case that everyone plays a relevant function, though the QB usually gets the glory.

Although there have absolutely been numerous times when everyone else was effectively on the sidelines watching, so I don't really consider it all THAT hyperbolic. But I will grant that it certainly isn't the case all of the time.

It’s the same thing that, in my opinion, makes it super hard to make a good Star Wars rpg in which some, but not all, characters are Jedi.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Is it logical that the castle has forbiddence? Does it make sense for the enemy to have cats and dogs because rats are a common nuisance?

If castles have walls, doors have locks, chests have traps and chandeliers may or my not hold the weight of a fighter in armor, why should important areas go unprotected against teleport?

Here’s your quote concerning forbiddence.

If the PCs have high level magic, I assume their opponents are prepared to counter it. Just like they'll have locks on a door or traps on a chest. Magic counters magic.

That doesn't elevate wizards one way or another, just that different counters will be used.

To me, this doesn’t look like forbiddence will only be used if logical. It looks a lot more like the challenges will be crafted to the capabilities of the party.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, but a wizard’s much broader capabilities require considerable more work as a GM to deal with, starting with enforcing 6-8 encounters (or more) between long rests.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

It’s the same thing that, in my opinion, makes it super hard to make a good Star Wars rpg in which some, but not all, characters are Jedi.

Except it is a choice in later D&D to elevate the Wizard to Jedi and keep the martials as normals.

D&D is such a hodge podge of fantasy tropes, unlike Star Wars there is no one fictional source D&D is trying to emulate. There are plently of (most of) fantasy inspiration that doesn't have this super hero Dr. Strange Wizard. Or martials limited to Earth human.

Maybe some argue that part of what makes D&D what it is, is this weird choice. But I don't think so.

Frequently the verbiage that D&D uses to describe martials is way ahead of the actual mechanics (inspiration cited in the 2nd edition Fighter description, talking about Fighters as the most likely leaders of Kingdoms, etc).

 

[Oofta]

Am I understanding your position correctly? It seems like you are saying that it doesn't matter if Peyton Manning is consistently the MVP as long as everyone else on the team also gets to play.

This is the one and only time I'm jumping through this hoop. Feel free answer the question or not. If your response is going to be that you're not going to respond because my phrasing offends your sensibilities or something, then spare yourself the effort and feel free not to respond at all.

There have only been 2 linebackers that have gotten the MVP since 1957. Yet I doubt anyone would say linebackers don't contribute. If you want to test the theory, go ahead and find a few and tell them they don't matter.

Some roles are flashier, doesn't mean other roles are extraneous.

 

[Gammadoodler]

A quick search for castle building costs would indicate that they can take literally thousands of workers a decade to construct.

The cost of forbiddence would be a drop in the bucket. I think you are vastly underestimating the amount of labor and the cost to build even a typical wall fortification, especially without modern machinery.

The caster in many cases could either be brought in as a specialist, or just as likely, do it because their leader asks them to. Throw in the fact that it lasts forever.

If it is a very low magic world, why are there wizards that can cast teleport running around? Who taught them the spell?

The D&D standard assumes pretty high level of magic. There may not be a caster available in the local village, but these were some of the biggest single construction projects of their era.

And such labor (especially medieval labor), is typically cheap and plentiful. And the results of their labor are not subject to deletion with a single spell slot (yet).

On the other hand, there are a decent number of construction-useful spells as well (Move earth, fabricate, stoneshape, etc.) that could make such a project considerably less expensive or time-consuming. Seems like we can pretty easily get into a quantum worldbuilding debate here.

The caster certainly could be brought in as a specialist to do the casting, but would first have to:

1. Exist, and
2. Exist in a world where teleportation happens frequently enough that countermeasures are deemed necessary.

The thing is, then, the kingdom would have to prevent every 5th lvl and above chump spellcaster from getting close enough to spend 6 seconds on a spell..forever. Or regularly bring in the specialist to re-up the casting. (Hell, they could run a pretty decent scam if they just occasionally got in disguise and dispelled it themselves.)

But all this drives setting assumptions. If you have a caster spending their valuable time and spell slots on this, it stands to reason that there is enough other magic in the setting to warrant it (including folks who know how to teleport).

And the point is, in order to prevent PC spellcasters from running roughshod over some of your encounters, you have to incorporate a level of magic into your setting that can fundamentally change the way it has to operate. Or you just fudge things repeatedly and hope no one notices.

 

[James Gasik]

I kind of like this, but damn, how did we get to the point where this makes sense? It'd actually be interesting to see someone like Fighter be literally better at the human-level things and break game mechanical barriers faster.

Yes, it would be best if everything was designed properly, but I would be interested to see this play out as a quick fix. Like, where is the sweet spot, 1.5x levels? Is there a sweet spot, is everything still off? It's basically just bigger base numbers, can it fix anything?

I have no idea really, because the issues of our "non-magical" classes have more to do with how they operate across the spectrum of combat/exploration/interaction/narrative power. The Rogue, for example, is fine in combat, and is built to be decent at exploration. If they want to be, they can be great at social interaction as well, by taking expertise in persuasion or something. But they lack the narrative power to wave their fingers and solve problems- they are limited to what a skill check can accomplish (which is highly variable from table to table).

The Fighter and Barbarian, however, while great in combat, have less capacity for exploration and social interaction by default, and have even less narrative power.

Narrative power, the biggest advantage of spellcasters (and the Wizard in particular), is something that's hard to equate, because it expands as you gain new spell levels.

Then you get to the fact that, due to the way classes are designed, being a level higher as a Fighter than the rest of your party might not even do anything more than give you a few more hit points.

If I were to do something like this, I'd probably not even worry about it until level 9 or so, and try to figure out some method so that when the most classes hit level 17, the Rogue is 18, and the Fighter and Barbarian are 19.

As for what happens when the Fighter and Barbarian hit level 20, well, the game is almost over anyways, so "running out of road" is likely not an issue.

 

[Garthanos]

And the point is, in order to prevent PC spellcasters from running roughshod over some of your encounters, you have to incorporate a level of magic into your setting that can fundamentally change the way it has to operate. Or you just fudge things repeatedly and hope no one notices.

And the game becomes Caster vs DM, sigh.

 

[Minigiant]

It’s the same thing that, in my opinion, makes it super hard to make a good Star Wars rpg in which some, but not all, characters are Jedi.

It's not hard really.

Again it's deciding what the aspect of the nonJedis are most important to the fiction and raising them to the levels.

For example, a Mandalorian soldier would just shoot 6 shots a turn and bypass the jedi's 5 deflections/turn. Then Boom. Sneak attack damage kills the jedi from a single pistol shot.

6 attacks a turn! that's cheating!
Nope that's how Mandalorian's fight. A %&#$ ton of high accuracy pistol/wristwreapon shots while jetpacking backward.

Ranger: Damn good tactics I tell you what.

The problem is designers/fans tend to want jedis to be unfairly broken. Then they cry when everyone plays a jedi.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Stop what? Expressing my opinions and observations of what I've seen in actual play? Quoting the best evidence we have that available? According to DDB devs they can track characters that are actually played. Wouldn't be hard, look at PCs that are leveled up and have items added over time.

I couldn't care less if you don't care for fighters. But you're making statements as facts that are simply not true.

If you want to draw anything from those numbers, it should be that casters are vastly more popular than non-casters.