D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Zubatcarteira]

A Bandit Captain can survive a Meteor Swarm if he makes the save, but he can also stand in the middle of a thousand normal Bandits, and they'll all die all no matter what.

Hit Points are op.

 

[Asisreo]

I never claimed that meteor swarm is equivalent to a meteor.

But that's my point. It's not equivalent. And because it's not equivalent, it shows that magic isn't a one-to-one with it's mundane counterpart and that the feats of magic isn't as terribly powerful as it appears.

If you plan to Imprison (rather than simply kill) the target, I'd assume the wizard would have the sense to prepare Fabricate. Material component problem solved.

That depend on if the DM interprets a statue as something that requires a high degree of craftsmanship. If it's up to DM interpretation, I assume we can set aside that option for the sake of argument since it will depend on the campaign.

Sure, the fighter could fight through an anti-magic zone. Unless creatures immune to nonmagical weapons block his path. Then he's in trouble.

Though, we're talking about a fighter villain, which means they're player-facing. I'm not sure of any non-magical options that a party may have that makes them immune to BPS damage, though the barbarian certainly has a natural resistance to it during rage.

"As the number of posts in a warrior vs caster thread increase, the probability of someone mentioning an anti-magic zone approaches 1."

I believe it's a relevant point. It's a game mechanic and it's valuable as a player-facing option, so a DM should consider it.

 

[Undrave]

I am much more willing to believe that the 5e devs miss-playtested a few higher-level spells and misjudged the playstyle the fans would prefer (/their willingness to use the optional rules to address the situation if they preferred otherwise), and overall missed a few minor beats than I am to believe that they are either 1) deliberately favoring casters but declining to say so, or 2) designed a system where they knowingly made different classes have different power levels, but left fundamental components of the game architecture based on making comparisons to the party level, class-neutrally.

Same here

I don't think that it's necessarily an outright bias towards making the wizard stronger, but rather that the wizard is an extremely wide concept, coupled with the historical design of the wizard, having access to all of the spells under that wide umbrella.

Imagine if you will, if the 1e wizard has been much more specialized. There would have been a much more limited pool of general spells shared by all wizards, and beyond that wizards would get spells from their specialized schools (necromancers would primarily cast necromancy spells, illusionists illusion spells). There's no "generalist" wizard in this paradigm.

I think it's likely that today we'd have wizards that were evolved along those lines, and therefore far more specialized than the wizards we have. And it would have been the same designers in both cases (albeit from alternate timelines).

Unfortunately, rather than using the 1e Illusionist class as their baseline, the 2e designers chose to use the Wizard, which is why I think we are where we are. If it had been the other way around, I think people would largely accept that as the norm (and probably argue that a "generalist" wizard would be completely overpowered).

I think there's also a case to be made that the Wizard self-select its defenders. The kind of player who would become designers are the kind of players who get a kick out of preparing a spell list for their Wizard.

 

[Dausuul]

Meteor swarm sounds super powerful, but if you break it down, a bandit captain has a decent chance of surviving the attack point-blank.

I did break it down, and got a shade over 4%. That's not what I would consider "decent."

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

It's not that Meteor Swarm itself is supposed to be all-powerful mechanically, but it's often used from a narrative argument to say "See, the wizard can just summon meteors while the fighter plays with sticks."

But the point is that the "meteor" is different than a realistic meteor in that a CR 2 human can decently hope to survive a magical meteor point-blank. So clearly magic can't be considered a one-to-one with their realistic counterpart.

I don't see too many people making this argument? It's not the fantastical fluff that people are pointing to, it's the effect.

Metoer swarm allows for a tactical strike from a mile away over a large area for decent HP damage. The fighter can't replicate this. How useful this ultimately is probably highly dependant from group to group based on playstyle, etc. But it's something different. Many spells give "something different" in both combat and exploration and social.

Magic is so broad in D&D that it allows for so many effects and permissions. It's not because the Wizard gets to do magic, the gap is that that magic can produce so many effects in a reliable, relitively low cost way. (not all magic systems are like this)

This type of magic may always be ahead but there are ways to give martials other stuff besides more attacks that reduce HPs that would close the gap on effects and permissions.

 

[Asisreo]

I did break it down, and got a shade over 4%. That's not what I would consider "decent."

If I told you that you had a 5% chance to survive a 80ft wide meteor, I'd think I was a superhero.

Plus, a bandit captain's range of health goes up to 100, which would put them in range to survive with a 30% chance.

But if that's unconvincing, you can replace bandit captain with Gladiator. The point still stands that a human can survive this massive meteor with enough bootstrap pulling.

 

[Fanaelialae]

But that's my point. It's not equivalent. And because it's not equivalent, it shows that magic isn't a one-to-one with it's mundane counterpart and that the feats of magic isn't as terribly powerful as it appears.

I can't follow this reasoning from a logical perspective.

You're basically saying that because the fly spell isn't the same as flying in an airplane, it isn't as powerful as it seems?

That because comprehend languages is different from Google Translate, that the spell isn't as good?

I think what you're missing from your logic is that different doesn't mean worse. Different can also be better. Moreover, the wizard can accomplish things that would be impossible by even our modern real world standards, meaning that those abilities are vastly better than anything in the real world. Whether or not meteor swarm is better or worse than a real world meteor has no bearing on anything whatsoever.

 

[Yaarel]

Now to me this comment speaks volumes about how much you restrict the adventures you use, possibly entirely warping them around the wizard. Off the top of my head:

• The PCs never decide they are outmatched (or just keep rolling badly on saving throws) and need to bug out from somewhere there isn't a teleportation ward
• Either the PCs do not have a home base where they can put things like permanent teleportation circles or their home base is never under threat
• No NPCs are ever going to find the PCs are out of town (or lure them out) and use the fact that they are known to be a week away to carry out their plans without interference
• Either the PCs do not have rich and powerful allies (like kings and queens) who can afford permanent teleportation circles or there is never anything like a palace coup that threatens these allies.
• When the PCs have cleared the distant dungeon or rescued the hostages there will never ever be rival NPCs trying to steal what they have rightfully stolen on the way back.
• No enemy will, for logistical reasons, launch an attack against two towns the PCs care about at the same time.

Indeed all adventures will take place in areas the PCs haven't been to before and have no emotional connection with and they are all discrete adventures rather than a connected plot with a component that involves racing against time.

Me, I prefer a more lived in world where by the time the PCs reach ninth level at least some of them are important and famous. And in such settings Teleportation Circle makes the whole party much more powerful.

The Teleportation Circle requires a minute to cast. It cannot be cast during combat. Also its destination must be setup ahead of time. Oe there is nowhere to go to.

The spell is solidly balanced and is appropriate for its tier.

 

[Asisreo]

Metoer swarm allows for a tactical strike from a mile away over a large area for decent HP damage. The fighter can't replicate this. How useful this ultimately is probably highly dependant from group to group based on playstyle, etc. But it's something different. Many spells give "something different" in both combat and exploration and social.

But is it truly something different? Because if we take away the large numbers, all it is is damage over an area. The only thing that makes it unique is pretty much the scope of what it does, but it's not inherently unique.

And that's great! A wizard/sorcerer/etc. is okay having something with larger scope. But recognize that the fighter also gets "something common" but in a larger scope as well, that being single target damage.

Just like how fireball goes to meteor swarm. A single extra attack from a fighter goes to three with added accuracy, damage, and even extra effects depending on the subclass.

Magic is so broad in D&D that it allows for so many effects and permissions. It's not because the Wizard gets to do magic, the gap is that that magic can produce so many effects in a reliable, relitively low cost way. (not all magic systems are like this)

In a large-scale perspective, sure. But that's only really when you flip through the spellcasting section as if all caster classes get all spells.

In reality, when you choose a class, you're fairly restricted. What you could theoretically choose doesn't matter because you can practically choose only so many spells. This is where the term Quantum Wizard comes from, which I'm sure you're familiar.

And even if you pick up every spell in your class somehow, you still can't do everything. A wizard can't heal unless they use Wish, which is a massive waste. A cleric hardly has any access to teleportation spells. A druid is vying for large AoE spells.

Wizards are utility masters, that's a fact, but their magic is often overblown when their effects actually are risky and have a large potential for failure or their effects can be acheived through mundane means.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The Teleportation Circle requires a minute to cast. It cannot be cast during combat.

Did I say otherwise? I wasn't suggesting pulling people out of combat. But one minute is not a lot of time and you can use it basically any time you are not actually in combat or a prisoner being directly watched. Every single situation I suggested above is a fair and valid use of Teleportation Circle.

Also its destination must be setup ahead of time. Oe there is nowhere to go to.

To quote from the rules for Teleportation Circle

When you first gain the ability to cast this spell, you learn the sigil sequences for two destinations on the Material Plane, determined by the DM.​

Which means that if you can cast the spell either (a) you have two available destinations or (b) the DM is being a bastard who is acting against the spirit of the rules by rendering them inaccessible (such as inside a volcano or enemy fortress). Of course, as a DM if you learn the spell one of the sigils you get is going to be to a lost circle - in other words a dungeon where claiming the circle itself is a big part of your treasure.

The spell is solidly balanced and is appropriate for its tier.

The spell might be "solidly balanced and appropriate for its tier" (which is Tier 2 for those keeping track at home) - but it gives you far more strategic control and versatility than is present in the entire fighter and barbarian classes combined. It's not especially out of line with other 5th level spells, but it is one of the ways that having a wizard in the party adds so much more to the capabilities than a fighter. After all swinging a sword is fair and balanced for tier 1.