D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Minigiant]

I dislike the idea that “wizards can do this at level 5, but martials doing it ever sounds kinda OP.” I chose 8d6 for a very deliberate reason.

8d6 at will, 8d6 3/longrest, and 8d6 1/short rest are 2 different things.

The 1st is Tier 3 11th level power for any class. The 2nd and 3rd is Tier 2 5th level power for any class.

Now Rogue is an at will class, it gets the 1st one at level 11.

if Wizard is a long rest class, it gets the 2nd one at level 5.

If Fight is hybrid at-will and short rest class, it either gets the 1st one at level 11 and/or the 3rd one at level 5.

 

[Krachek]

Why can't a warrior do 8d6 damage though? No one seems to mind when a Rogue does 8d6 damage.

In fact a level 6 fighter with 20 str and using a greatsword, is doing at will 4d6 + 10 which is technically equivalent to 7d6. At same level a rogue is doing 1d6 +4 + 3d6 for 5d6.
The wizard can do 8d8 a limited time a day.

At level 11 the same fighter with a mere +1 weapon, is doing 6d6+18, so 11d6 at will.
if per chance he can place -5/+10 to a soft target, we add 30 or 8d6, what makes a 19d6.
(The +10 damage is not always fully applied on average, but +5 damage is a standard gain, which give a firm 4d6 bonus.)
Add action surge we can managed to have 22d6, 30d6 up to 38d6!

 

[Neonchameleon]

In fact a level 6 fighter with 20 str and using a greatsword, is doing at will 4d6 + 10 which is technically equivalent to 7d6. At same level a rogue is doing 1d6 +4 + 3d6 for 5d6.
The wizard can do 8d8 a limited time a day.

Can do 8d6 a limited number of times per day to everyone in a 20ft radius sphere at the same time.

 

[Krachek]

Can do 8d6 a limited number of times per day to everyone in a 20ft radius sphere at the same time.

So it need at least two targets to equal the fighter action surge, and usually four targets to be worthwhile. I play wizards enough to say that place four targets in a fireball is your lucky day!

 

[Mort]

L

In fact a level 6 fighter with 20 str and using a greatsword, is doing at will 4d6 + 10 which is technically equivalent to 7d6. At same level a rogue is doing 1d6 +4 + 3d6 for 5d6.
The wizard can do 8d8 a limited time a day.

At level 11 the same fighter with a mere +1 weapon, is doing 6d6+18, so 11d6 at will.
if per chance he can place -5/+10 to a soft target, we add 30 or 8d6, what makes a 19d6.
Add action surge we got a 38d6!

Yes,

I've seen fighters played at 15th level. And at that level significantly out damage the rest of the party (including a rogue, paladin and fireball using sorcerer).

The fighter is fine (though possibly a bit boring, depending on taste) in combat. It's the other pillars of play that they need some help.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So it need at least two targets to equal the fighter action surge, and usually four targets to be worthwhile. I play wizards enough to say that place four targets in a fireball is your lucky day!

And I DM enough to say that four targets in a fireball, at least in my campaigns, is "lucky day" as in day you find an empty parking spot at the right end of the car park. Not lucky day as in lottery ticket win.

I think my players' record for foes in a fireball is fifteen.

 

[Asisreo]

If the fighter had a no save instant death ability (even once per day) that would feel powerful.

In a way, they do. Simply do enough damage to kill a creature in one-shot. In reference to PWK, it again seems powerful on the surface level but in practicality it's "do 100 damage. If that doesn't kill, undo the damage." And it's attached to magic with all it's drawbacks.

Not to mention, the monk has an ability extremely similar to this in their Open Hand tradition.

If they could tear through a porticulis like it were made of paper, that would feel powerful.

If you use the DMG object rules and assume that the portcullis is the most resilient option (large, resilient), the fighter can tear through it before a round is over.

It's explicitly possible to bend portcullis bars in the DMG, so if the DM calls for a strength check, the fighter can "take20" and get as high as a DC 28. Not only without magic assistance, but with a straight strength check with no skills/tools.

Or, if they simply want to lift it, then as long as the weight of the portcullis is less than 600lbs, the fighter can lift it easily with no ability check. If they can't, the DM can call for a strength check where they, again, get a huge possible score.

If they could single handedly stare down an entire regiment of soldiers and make them back down (without relying on DM fiat) that would feel powerful.

Any character can do this with the Pirate background. And while you may think it relies on DM fiat, there really isn't a way to give a feature like that to a character without it being frustrating for the DM. I mean, even spells can't force an entire regiment to back down at a time. You can frighten or charm them or try to Mass Suggestion them, but there's still limits like saving throws and a finite number of creatures that can be magically suggested. A GOOlock would need very specific circumstances to attempt to imitate that.

 

[Krachek]

Yes,

I've seen fighters played at 15th level. And at that level significantly out damage the rest of the party (including a rogue, paladin and fireball using sorcerer).

The fighter is fine (though possibly a bit boring, depending on taste) in combat. It's the other pillars of play that they need some help.

As the primary damage dealer, the Fighter character should lead the party,
« hey you the wizard, you gonna teleport us there »
« you the rogue, stop looking at loot, and go scout the next room »
And tell the cleric, « if your god can finally help us, I will smash this mighty demon! »

 

[Fanaelialae]

In a way, they do. Simply do enough damage to kill a creature in one-shot. In reference to PWK, it again seems powerful on the surface level but in practicality it's "do 100 damage. If that doesn't kill, undo the damage." And it's attached to magic with all it's drawbacks.

Not to mention, the monk has an ability extremely similar to this in their Open Hand tradition.

If you use the DMG object rules and assume that the portcullis is the most resilient option (large, resilient), the fighter can tear through it before a round is over.

It's explicitly possible to bend portcullis bars in the DMG, so if the DM calls for a strength check, the fighter can "take20" and get as high as a DC 28. Not only without magic assistance, but with a straight strength check with no skills/tools.

Or, if they simply want to lift it, then as long as the weight of the portcullis is less than 600lbs, the fighter can lift it easily with no ability check. If they can't, the DM can call for a strength check where they, again, get a huge possible score.

Any character can do this with the Pirate background. And while you may think it relies on DM fiat, there really isn't a way to give a feature like that to a character without it being frustrating for the DM. I mean, even spells can't force an entire regiment to back down at a time. You can frighten or charm them or try to Mass Suggestion them, but there's still limits like saving throws and a finite number of creatures that can be magically suggested. A GOOlock would need very specific circumstances to attempt to imitate that.

Simply dealing damage isn't very interesting, nor does it do much to evoke the archetype of the legendary warrior. It's effectively the same thing you were doing at level 1. I never said it was powerful. Like @Neonchameleon , I don't think the fighter needs help in that department.

Where I think the fighter needs help is "wow factor" and utility.

A PWK ability that is usable one per day isn't much in terms of combat power (the fighter could output that same damage in a relatively short window anyway). It's the "wow factor" of not having to do so.

The monk also being able to do so says to me that there's no big harm in letting the fighter do so. We're not disrupting a core niche here. If anything, we're giving the ability to the guy whose niche it belongs to.

Maybe the fighter could destroy the porticulis using the rules. Really depends on how strong the DM rules the porticulis and how well the fighter rolls. Also, I was envisioning more of a single attack type of thing, so that the fighter doesn't have to sacrifice all of his attacks for what amounts to going through the door.

Regarding taking 20, that doesn't exist in 5e.

Regarding lifting things that are within your encumbrance limit, I will refer you to earlier in the thread where we had a discussion about why people think characters should have to roll for lifting things that are within your allowance. And yes, there are folks who believe this is perfectly reasonable.

So, again, DM fiat, which is not ubiquitous from table to table. I can take the same fighter to the same adventure at three different tables and get three different results. One might let me lift the porticulis automatically. One might make me roll for it. One might decide that it weighs a ton and not permit me to even make the attempt. Spells work without fiat. Why can't the fighter have features that work without fiat?

Moreover, all of these are things that anyone with high strength can do. I'm talking about an exclusive fighter feature that would let the fighter do this exceptionally well. Better than others. Both for "wow factor" and utility.

Regarding your pirate intimidation, please refer to the above. My response would basically be a copy/paste with a few words changed for the context.

 

[Oofta]

For a while I was playing Solarus quite a bit. It's a game based on basic D&D rules with a few additions with 4 PCs, people can also publish their own campaigns. The reason I bring it up is because they also track how much damage every PC does over the course of the campaign - which can be any series of levels 1-14 with some doing lower levels, some doing higher.

With a handful of exceptions like the campaign that gave the wizard a wand of fireballs and always had the monsters approach in fireball formation, the fighter(s) almost always did the most damage. Hypothetically that pattern could change in levels 15-20, but very few people get to that level and in my experience in real games the fighter still did as good or better than any other class.

In 3.5, up to level 14 or so was reasonably well balance but then it tipped into the favor of wizards and tipped amazingly quickly. Over the course of a level or 2, my fighter went from champ to comparative chump. It's why LFR (the public campaign) didn't bother going past level 14, the game was broken. So yes, people played fighters in 3.5 because up to a certain point they were still relatively competitive. After that tipping point, they were not. Comparing 3.5 to 5E higher levels is comparing apples to oranges.