D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Asisreo]

When I think of a portcullis I think of one at a castle gate. And those are huge - which means that they do not have any sort of defined hit points.

If a DM uses hitpoints, the DMG says to divide it into large sections if the object is huge or bigger. Which means it's just as easy to break (or at least make an hole large enough to pass through).

Where does it say that? And how are you going to bend portcullis bars?

Page 104 of the DMG:

"If a character can't reach the winch (usually because it is on the other side of the portcullis), lifting the portcullis or bending its bars far enough apart to pass through them requires a successful Strength check. The DC of the check depends on the size and weight of the portcullis or the thickness of its bars. To determine an appropriate DC, see chapter 8. "

This is precisely why portcullises are heavy. If it's known that very few people can lift in excess of 600lbs then I'd expect a reasonable portcullis to weigh upwards of 750lbs. More if Goliaths are around. They aren't designed to make things easy for the fighter - quite the reverse. And as they are lifted by a winch and pulley weight doesn't matter that much.

It depends. In the real world, it's not like all residential houses have defenses that prevent the most savvy thieves, so is it reasonable that all castle portcullis' are made specifically heavy enough to prevent characters that can lift unreasonable weights?

A very secure, important castle might have the front door portcullis extremely fortified. But would they bother with every indoor portcullis? Realistically, they might not depending on cost, labor, etc.

And a nation that's known peace for centuries might not even have maintained their portcullis' because they simply grew lax.

Put simply, it mostly depends on context.

 

[Fanaelialae]

That "wow factor" is simply flavor, though. As long as I'm holding my weapon, I could flavor my fighter to stare at the enemy until they're chopped to pieces and it doesn't change anything mechanically. While that's an extreme example, there's certainly been characters with prosthetic blades that are reflavored swords-in-hand or assassin's creed blades that are reflavored daggers.

And there's no reason why it can't transition from level 1 characters swinging a sword while level 20 characters slicing an enemy without making direct contact as long as the rules were still appied.

In name, no. But in effect, the DMG says that rather than a character constantly re-rolling a check that has no consequence on failure, they automatically succeed at the cost of ten times how long it would normally take, so long as the task is possible.


Because all characters must use DM fiat regardless of features. A DM can say your spell simply doesn't work or works differently than you expect and not owe you an explanation. And still be perfectly within RAW, non-hostile, and actually consistent with their ruling.

You can cast Alter Self and NPC's still recognize you without a roll simply because they recognize your character's speech patterns so well.

You can cast invisibility and a thug still sees you because a DM rules invisibility is more like a Halo cloaking device than a Harry Potter cloak.

You can cast comprehend language and not understand a single word from a dwarven NPC because they use so much slang the literal interpretation is nonsense.

The notion that spells are infallible and not DM fiat is fundamentally flawed because a DM can still interpret it's consequences however they see fit.

You seem to be missing that there is a difference between having an ability that lets you do X, but the DM says no you can't because Y, versus having no ability to do X and relying on the DM allowing you to do Y or not (and rendering a ruling on how that will be achieved).

Having the ability means the default state is that the answer is Yes. If I have Fireball, the default is that I can throw fireballs. If I have Invisibility, the default is that I can turn invisible.

Not having the ability means that the default assumption is No, unless the DM rules Yes. Can my fighter throw fireballs? No. Can my fighter turn invisible? No. Can my fighter get through the porticulis (depends on the DM)? If it is allowed, there's no telling how the ruling will go or what my odds of success will be.

Maybe the DM rules that the porticulis is too strong to break or bend, but I can attempt a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check to squeeze through. That's a good day to be the Strength fighter with a 29 strength (belt of storm giant strength) and training in Athletics (but not Acrobatics), no?

Now, before you go claiming that I want a sword wizard who can throw fireballs and turn invisible, no, that is not what I am saying. I am simply illustrating that there is a stark difference between having an ability that lets you do a thing, and relying on the DM to allow something.

As to wow factor being mere flavor, no. When a wizard rains down destruction upon an enemy army using Meteor Swarm, that's wow factor. When the wizard trivializes a boss fight that the other players weren't confident they could win by trapping the boss in a forcecage, that's wow factor. And when my wizard turned a looming TPK into a sure win by polymorphing the fighter that was about to go down into a Giant Ape, you better believe is was a heaping serving of wow factor.

The fighter has virtually no wow factor, despite that a warrior of legend absolutely should.

 

[Gammadoodler]

If I told you that you had a 5% chance to survive a 80ft wide meteor, I'd think I was a superhero.

Plus, a bandit captain's range of health goes up to 100, which would put them in range to survive with a 30% chance.

But if that's unconvincing, you can replace bandit captain with Gladiator. The point still stands that a human can survive this massive meteor with enough bootstrap pulling.

And the chance of not "becoming salami" when attacked by your comparative fighter from somewhere within a mile of their location?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

While I understand you're trying to illustrate your point, you're applying quantitative values to a qualitative position. And it's important because I disagree that fighters are 1's in areas other than combat. Sure, not as high as wizards on-average, but the fighter simply does have exploration/social abilities built into the class.

That is certainly a bold claim. Other than the base 4 skill proficiencies everyone gets, a lot of people have been saying that the fighter base class does not get many exploration or social capabilities.
Since you have proof that this is not the case, by all means, present it.

 

[Krachek]

The fighter outside combat is a glorified commoner.

Indeed if you evacuate most of the fun of a RPG and play on bonus and abilities.

 

[Neonchameleon]

"If a character can't reach the winch (usually because it is on the other side of the portcullis), lifting the portcullis or bending its bars far enough apart to pass through them requires a successful Strength check. The DC of the check depends on the size and weight of the portcullis or the thickness of its bars. To determine an appropriate DC, see chapter 8. "

I've shown what a (wooden) portcullis looked like. Those bars did not bend. And even if they did you couldn't go through them.

It depends. In the real world, it's not like all residential houses have defenses that prevent the most savvy thieves, so is it reasonable that all castle portcullis' are made specifically heavy enough to prevent characters that can lift unreasonable weights?

The problem here is that you are using the wrong analogy. A portcullis isn't the equivalent of a normal house door. It's a bank vault door. That sort of level of security. It is entirely and completely reasonable to assume that all castle portcullises are made specifically heavy enough that they can't readily be lifted by an entire squad of invading soldiers working together because the entire point of a portcullis was to be something that could be easily closed and then couldn't be lifted by an entire squad of invading soldiers from the wrong side who had the added incentive of having rocks or boiling water thrown at them at the time.

A very secure, important castle might have the front door portcullis extremely fortified. But would they bother with every indoor portcullis?

N/A. The entire point of an a portcullis is to be large, obnoxious, and almost impossible to move from the wrong side while being able to close incredibly fast and easily in a way that people couldn't stop. Indoor portcullises were exceptionally rare. And if they weren't supposed to be extremely fortified you wouldn't use an "indoor portcullis" that took about a minute to open, required someone on the wrong side, and took as much space above the portcullis as the portcullis itself took. And required the winch be maintained.

You know what you'd use instead of an "indoor portcullis" in any except the most secure locations? A door. A large, thick wooden door that can be barred from the inside. Or even a medium weight door with a lock. Which will keep any but the most determined intruders out but you don't need a winch, don't need the space above for, and can be reasonably opened by a person when not barred.

Realistically, they might not depending on cost, labor, etc.

And a nation that's known peace for centuries might not even have maintained their portcullis' because they simply grew lax.

In which case one of two things would happen:

1. The portcullises would get stuck and either not close or not open
2. They'd get rid of the portcullises entirely.

"Not maintaining" a portcullis means the winch breaks or you take them out and replace them with normal doors. It doesn't miraculously mean that half the weight of the thing evaporates.

There's one other thing about portcullises and D&D. A portcullis is a door you can see through which means you can e.g. Misty Step through it.

 

[Maxperson]

Indomitable doesn't count? It's not legendary resistance, but that's reserved for monsters.

So they need Hulk or Superman levels of strength? Able to throw tanks like they were frisbees?

Can any class do that? Exactly what kind of power would this be? It's quite situational, but you're talking about what ... super intimidate?

You clearly have a different definition of powerful than I, or people I play with, do. What you're talking about is mythic level/comic book superhero. You want demigods, I want mortals who are fighters of legend but still ultimately mortal. I've played martial types to 20th level and they felt plenty powerful to me.

I agree that your suggestions would make them powerful. I have no idea how you'd balance it out. I also don't see how it would fit D&D.

Yeah. Even a dragon can't tear through a portcullis like it's paper. And yet they're okay with fighters doing a D8(longsword)+5 strength bonus damage with that superman strength, instead of the 100d8(or more)+1000(or more) that you would do if you were that strong.

 

[Maxperson]

The issue where I think a lot of people are diverging from you is that high level 5e IS a top-tier superhero game. You're talking about a game where the wizard can turn the party into ancient red dragons or angels before a big fight. Or just say a word and straight up kill a dude. Or snap your fingers and walk to another plane.

Ancient white only. All the other ancients are CR 21+ I believe, which puts them out of reach.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Indeed if you evacuate most of the fun of a RPG and play on bonus and abilities.

As a DM my fun does not involve becoming the fighter player's servant and automatically doing favours for one character class above all others just because the designers of the game screwed up and didn't give the fighter enough to do their job.

And as the player of a fighter my fun does not involve begging the DM for favours that I wouldn't expect them to grant members of any other class. Neither does it involve behaving like a jerk and ordering everyone else around to make up for the fact I don't have the ability to do my part the way your jerk fighter in your example did.

Bonuses and abilities and handling challenges are part of RPGs. You however want me to evacuate all the fun of engaging with the gameworld and of overcoming challenges and just massage the ego of the fighter character and their player.

I'm not the one trying to evacuate all the fun of an RPG here.

 

[pemerton]

Can do 8d6 a limited number of times per day to everyone in a 20ft radius sphere at the same time.

And the average is better b/c of damage on a miss.