D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Fanaelialae]

Indeed if you evacuate most of the fun of a RPG and play on bonus and abilities.

We're comparing the rules, which inform the play experience but are not the play experience.

For example, in a campaign where the DM says yes to anything and everything, there's no meaningful difference between the wizard and the fighter whatsoever. The wizard casts fireball, and when the fighter asks if he can mimic what the wizard just did and also cast fireball, the DM says "Sure!".

To use a less extreme example, imagine if this DM follows the rule of cool. The characters are fleeing a collapsing dungeon, but a 20' wide gap blocks their path. The wizard casts Misty Step and teleports across. The fighter asks if he can hook his grappling hook into the ceiling and swing across. The DM says yes and, because this is a high level fighter and something like this would be trivial for him, allows him to automatically succeed. Still not a stark difference. Though, the wizard could have potentially done the grappling hook thing too (depending on the DM) and saved himself a spell

Now imagine a more traditional DM. Same scenario as before. The wizard Misty Steps across, and the fighter asks to swing across. The DM says, "Sure. That'll be an improvised weapon attack and the whole area is collapsing, so make an attack with disadvantage to hit your target. Don't forget that you don't add your proficiency modifier because you're using an improvised weapon. You succeeded? Great! Now give me an Athletics check with disadvantage to see if your grapple hooks something that can hold your weight. Success? Awesome! Now I just need one Acrobatics check to swing across and land on the other side. Low roll. Too bad, you fall into the 200' deep chasm taking 20d6 damage. I hope you can get out before this place collapses!"

Anyone can do anything (that the DM permits). That has little basis in a comparison of two classes, because it will change dramatically depending on the DM. It the fighter had some ability to "stunt" better than other classes then it would have some bearing on this conversation. But the fighter doesn't. You can't claim that something every character can do, or that a particular DM grants fighters because that's how they think fighters should work, is a reason the fighter is good. Because that's not a feature of the fighter, but rather of all characters or the DM (respectively).

 

[Krachek]

As a DM my fun does not involve becoming the fighter player's servant and automatically doing favours for one character class above all others just because the designers of the game screwed up and didn't give the fighter enough to do their job.

And as the player of a fighter my fun does not involve begging the DM for favours that I wouldn't expect them to grant members of any other class. Neither does it involve behaving like a jerk and ordering everyone else around to make up for the fact I don't have the ability to do my part the way your jerk fighter in your example did.

Bonuses and abilities and handling challenges are part of RPGs. You however want me to evacuate all the fun of engaging with the gameworld and of overcoming challenges and just massage the ego of the fighter character and their player.

I'm not the one trying to evacuate all the fun of an RPG here.

Last time I play a fighter, I make a dragon born fighter samurai.
I take the perform skill and make him write and recite Haiku like poetry.
Just with that it was enough to fill any social or exploration encounter and make fun for me and everyone. It was a kind of warrior poet far from any commoner. Of course if I play with a DM that just want to screw players with high DC and complex setup I would choose otherwise, but my DM see all character as heroes and let time for everybody to shine.
We probably play on very different perspective.

We can argue that a Bard would have made a better poet. I’m not sure, bard manage his spells, his remaining inspiration usage, he check out with the rogue if he had a better bonus than him, a bard player don’t have mind space remaining to recite haiku during a game!

 

[Gammadoodler]

Too bad, you fall into the 200' deep chasm taking 20d6 damage. I hope you can get out before this place collapses!"

I think what you meant to say here was

"That's like 20 storeys...No mortal person can survive a fall that high, your fighter is dead"

 

[Gammadoodler]

Last time I play a fighter, I make a dragon born fighter samurai.
I take the perform skill and make him write and recite Haiku like poetry.
Just with that it was enough to fill any social or exploration encounter and make fun for me and everyone. It was a kind of warrior poet far from any commoner. Of course if I play with a DM that just want to screw players with high DC and complex setup I would choose otherwise, but my DM see all character as heroes and let time for everybody to shine.
We probably play on very different perspective.

We can argue that a Bard would have made a better poet. I’m not sure, bard manage his spells, his remaining inspiration usage, he check out with the rogue if he had a better bonus than him, a bard player don’t have mind space remaining to recite haiku during a game!

Sure.. if interactions with the game mechanics do not comprise an important part of your play experience, then imbalance within those mechanics will likely not be important to you.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Last time I play a fighter, I make a dragon born fighter samurai.
I take the perform skill and make him write and recite Haiku like poetry.
Just with that it was enough to fill any social or exploration encounter and make fun for me and everyone. It was a kind of warrior poet far from any commoner. Of course if I play with a DM that just want to screw players with high DC and complex setup I would choose otherwise, but my DM see all character as heroes and let time for everybody to shine.
We probably play on very different perspective.

We can argue that a Bard would have made a better poet. I’m not sure, bard manage his spells, his remaining inspiration usage, he check out with the rogue if he had a better bonus than him, a bard player don’t have mind space remaining to recite haiku during a game!

What you describe is enough for flavour and to get a memorable character. It's excellent for downtime.

What randomly spouting haikus won't do is help negotiate for passage, de-escalate fights, investigate murders, or otherwise solve social problems and deal with challenges the party might have issues with.

And a commoner can be a poet. Most aren't - but it's not out of the reach of a commoner of the same level.

 

[Krachek]

We're comparing the rules, which inform the play experience but are not the play experience.

For example, in a campaign where the DM says yes to anything and everything, there's no meaningful difference between the wizard and the fighter whatsoever. The wizard casts fireball, and when the fighter asks if he can mimic what the wizard just did and also cast fireball, the DM says "Sure!".

To use a less extreme example, imagine if this DM follows the rule of cool. The characters are fleeing a collapsing dungeon, but a 20' wide gap blocks their path. The wizard casts Misty Step and teleports across. The fighter asks if he can hook his grappling hook into the ceiling and swing across. The DM says yes and, because this is a high level fighter and something like this would be trivial for him, allows him to automatically succeed. Still not a stark difference. Though, the wizard could have potentially done the grappling hook thing too (depending on the DM) and saved himself a spell

Now imagine a more traditional DM. Same scenario as before. The wizard Misty Steps across, and the fighter asks to swing across. The DM says, "Sure. That'll be an improvised weapon attack and the whole area is collapsing, so make an attack with disadvantage to hit your target. Don't forget that you don't add your proficiency modifier because you're using an improvised weapon. You succeeded? Great! Now give me an Athletics check with disadvantage to see if your grapple hooks something that can hold your weight. Success? Awesome! Now I just need one Acrobatics check to swing across and land on the other side. Low roll. Too bad, you fall into the 200' deep chasm taking 20d6 damage. I hope you can get out before this place collapses!"

Anyone can do anything (that the DM permits). That has little basis in a comparison of two classes, because it will change dramatically depending on the DM. It the fighter had some ability to "stunt" better than other classes then it would have some bearing on this conversation. But the fighter doesn't. You can't claim that something every character can do, or that a particular DM grants fighters because that's how they think fighters should work, is a reason the fighter is good. Because that's not a feature of the fighter, but rather of all characters or the DM (respectively).

The rules of the game are built on an assumption of cooperation from the players and the DM
to live a great adventure for their chosen characters.
Of course some table don’t play on cooperation, I even read that some players deny social interaction if the character don’t have enough social kill bonus.
Some DM don’t play cooperation too. If the home brewed Adventure assume a high level caster, and if the party don’t have one, they won’t see the end. some Dm are very stubborn, and on the premise of giving challenge they ignore any cooperative adjustment.
i think it´s a pitfall to see only the rules and ignore the cooperative process.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The rules of the game are built on an assumption of cooperation from the players and the DM
to live a great adventure for their chosen characters.
Of course some table don’t play on cooperation, I even read that some players deny social interaction if the character don’t have enough social kill bonus.
Some DM don’t play cooperation too. If the home brewed Adventure assume a high level caster, and if the party don’t have one, they won’t see the end. some Dm are very stubborn, and on the premise of giving challenge they ignore any cooperative adjustment.
i think it´s a pitfall to see only the rules and ignore the cooperative process.

Whether or not you see it as a pitfall is kind of irrelevant. Plenty of DMs here on ENWorld have proudly stated that they don't run a cooperative game and that their players like it that way. And, aside from a DM who runs their campaign in an abusive manner, I respect that even if it isn't entirely my cup of tea.

The fighter's efficacy should not be contingent upon having a cooperative DM, any more than the wizard ought to be. The wizard is effective whether the DM is cooperative or an impartial referee.

In many instances, the fighter is dramatically less impactful under the latter DM, and that is a design flaw. They don't have to be dramatically weaker under an impartial referee DM. Look at the DCC RPG, which not only assumes that the referee will be impartial, but also builds stunting into the fighter class. I wouldn't say it is perfect, but I'd say it's a much better designed fighter than the 5e fighter.

 

[Krachek]

What you describe is enough for flavour and to get a memorable character. It's excellent for downtime.

What randomly spouting haikus won't do is help negotiate for passage, de-escalate fights, investigate murders, or otherwise solve social problems and deal with challenges the party might have issues with.

And a commoner can be a poet. Most aren't - but it's not out of the reach of a commoner of the same level.

in our games to negotiate a passage takes long minutes, everybody take time to interact,
argue, propose a solution. Making a charisma check takes 30 seconds. The fun is not succeeding the check, and sometime there is more fun failing it! The fun is all the time spend around.
The most memorable adventure start we got were once the party was failing all the social and exploration checks we have to do. It put the adventure in a totally unexpected scenario that were eventually resolve in a pretty nasty way.

I see is no particular pride in succeeding a check, or Misty step across a chasm. I find fun in making a character living.

 

[Oofta]

Ancient white only. All the other ancients are CR 21+ I believe, which puts them out of reach.

There's also no way to do the entire party, no way to do more than 1 unless you somehow have more than 1 9th level slot.

 

[Gammadoodler]

in our games to negotiate a passage takes long minutes, everybody take time to interact,
argue, propose a solution. Making a charisma check takes 30 seconds. The fun is not succeeding the check, and sometime there is more fun failing it! The fun is all the time spend around.
The most memorable adventure start we got were once the party was failing all the social and exploration checks we have to do. It put the adventure in a totally unexpected scenario that were eventually resolve in a pretty nasty way.

I see is no particular pride in succeeding a check, or Misty step across a chasm. I find fun in making a character living.

So, I assume, when you play your character, that you don't look for any ways to increase their chances at successfully achieving tasks?