D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Oofta]

One of my favorite is the Chinese legend that there used to be ten Sun Raven, one for each hour of the day, but one day they all came at the same time, threatening to burn the world. A legendary archer then shot down 9 of them.

My favorite is about this guy named Paul who carved out the great lakes for his ox, Babe.

Paul Bunyan doesn't make a good model for D&D. Many mythical figures do not.

 

[Cadence]

I want to ask how these legendary heroes are ever challenged by anything when they can carve out lakes, chop down mountains, hold their breath for three days, shoot down the sun, etc...

Is the answer that they don't do those things on a regular basis and they're the offensive equivalent of plot armor?

 

[Fanaelialae]

My favorite is about this guy named Paul who carved out the great lakes for his ox, Babe.

Paul Bunyan doesn't make a good model for D&D. Many mythical figures do not.

And yet you don't complain that wizards are more powerful than most of their mythic counterparts.

 

[Yaarel]

My favorite is about this guy named Paul who carved out the great lakes for his ox, Babe.

Paul Bunyan doesn't make a good model for D&D. Many mythical figures do not.

Paul and Babe are jǫtnar. Babe shapeshifted into a ox, in other words, a "troll-ox". An other jǫtnar did something similar, with her sons shapeshifting in oxen to carve the waterways between Sweden and Denmark.

Actually jǫtnar can be great player characters. Altho they can grow Large and larger, even be the size of a continent, most are normal Medium humansize: compare Loki, Skaði, and many other jǫtnar.

A manifestation of nature starts off humansize, and can grow magically while leveling, depending on which nature feature is manifesting. A mountain is taller.

There are examples, such as two siblings from the same family, has one sibling be humansize and the other sibling be the height of a cliff.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I want to ask how these legendary heroes are ever challenged by anything when they can carve out lakes, chop down mountains, hold their breath for three days, shoot down the sun, etc...

Is the answer that they don't do those things on a regular basis and they're the offensive equivalent of plot armor?

I would imagine you'd challenge them similarly to how a high level wizard is challenged. Also, keep in mind that I don't think most of us are literally saying that a high level fighter ought to be able to do exactly those things. It's that the designers should use those mythic acts as inspiration in designing the fighter. Not that every fighter needs to be able to carve a lake, hold their breath for three days (this is not even that good given that it's basically a not-so-rare magic item), chop down a mountain, and kill the sun at will.

Just that these feats are a pretty stark contrast to turning on auto-attack and walking away...

 

[Oofta]

And yet you don't complain that wizards are more powerful than most of their mythic counterparts.

I disagree. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

By the way you never explained how a wizard could change the entire party into ancient red dragons.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Shame there's no martial character to base a Mythic Fighter on, eh? A propos of nothing... Remember when Hercules defeated an Hydra on his own? Or his first labor where he wrestled and strangled the Nemean Lion who was impervious to weapons? Or what about when Roland, knight of Charlemagne, cleaved a mountain top two with a strike of his sword, creating a pass that bear his name TO THIS DAY.

Well, don't forget he had his nephew/lover hand him a torch. I'm sure that made all the difference. Regardless, he also once wrestled death into submission, being perhaps my favorite example of epic martialdom.

lol [citation needed]

Side note: can we not do this? "[citation needed]" is something that belongs in an unsourced claim in a wikipedia article. In personal discussion it's just pointlessly condescending. When people don't provide sources in an online discussion, it is because no one has yet asked for it (and they assumed others could mentally fill in the blanks). There's no reason the be snarky in that asking for it.

My favorite is about this guy named Paul who carved out the great lakes for his ox, Babe.

Paul Bunyan doesn't make a good model for D&D. Many mythical figures do not.

Definitely true. On the other hand, you can say the same about many examples that inform magical characters, but D&D does a decent job of approximating those characters -- changing the specifics but keeping the general theme.

 

[Undrave]

I want to ask how these legendary heroes are ever challenged by anything when they can carve out lakes, chop down mountains, hold their breath for three days, shoot down the sun, etc...

Is the answer that they don't do those things on a regular basis and they're the offensive equivalent of plot armor?

Roland died at the Battle of Roncevaux Pass.

 

[Oofta]

Paul and Babe are jǫtnar. Babe shapeshifted into a ox, in other words, a "troll-ox". An other jǫtnar did something similar, with her sons shapeshifting in oxen to carve the waterways between Sweden and Denmark.

Actually jǫtnar can be great player characters. Altho they can grow Large and larger, even be the size of a continent, most are normal Medium humansize: compare Loki, Skaði, and many other jǫtnar.

A manifestation of nature starts off humansize, and can grow magically while leveling, depending on which nature feature is manifesting. A mountain is taller.

There are examples, such as two siblings from the same family, has one sibling be humansize and the other sibling be the height of a cliff.

I have no problem with gods and demigods doing cool stuff. I'd even be OK with some of the stuff if we had epic levels. But we don't.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I disagree. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

By the way you never explained how a wizard could change the entire party into ancient red dragons.

I never claimed that a wizard could change the entire party into ancient red dragons. But I think whoever did claim that responded to you, admitted that they were mistaken and it was actually one age category younger, and that it could be accomplished using True Polymorph (you wait an hour until the spell becomes permanent, so it would take one day per party member, but totally feasible).

They're absolutely in the same ballpark. If wizards were equivalent to their mythic counterparts, they probably wouldn't get spells higher than 5th level (and a lot less of them overall).