[+] The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - SPOILERS ALLOWED

[Paul Farquhar]

In the books it's Ar-Pharazon that led the Numenoreans to sail against Aman. In this show Pharazon is chancellor. I wouldn't put it past the writers to have Chancellor Palpatine, I mean Pharazon be Sauron in this show.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this guy is a villain. Probably not Sauron himself, but a puppet.

 

[Maxperson]

No it isn't, he is defeated by Numenorian forces before that in the source material. But for some reason Tolkien doesn't explain well Sauron is captured without the Ring. He then persuades the Numenorians to attack heaven, with predictable results, returns to Middle Earth, sets himself up again, is defeated by the Last Alliance of Elves and Men (not just Numenorians), and then the ring is cut from his hand.

He wasn't captured. When Numenor attacked, his forces fled with barely any fight. Sauron decided to allow himself to be captured at that point, when he easily could have just shapechanged(he had that ability) and regrouped. But he knew that he could not defeat Numenor with might of arms, so he surrendered to destroy them from within. He had time to hide the ring before surrender.

 

[Dausuul]

We know from the books that he wasn't invincible with it and he would surely know that. There's no way that he would take it with him when as a prisoner he would be searched thoroughly before he would be imprisoned on Numenor. Plus he would know that if he hid it so that it could not be found, he would be able to use it to reform himself should he be killed. Given the circumstances, it was very likely that he would have willingly been parted from the ring.

Per Tolkien's letters, Sauron did take the Ring with him:

"Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning*: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them.)"

Taking the Ring was a bit of a gamble, perhaps, but as a surrendering head of state Sauron was in a very different position from a common prisoner of war. It's not like they would have strip-searched him, nor would they have any reason to take one plain gold ring off his hand.

 

[Maxperson]

Per Tolkien's letters, Sauron did take the Ring with him:

"Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning*: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them.)"

Interesting. I never really went over the letters. It seems odd that they would allow him to keep anything, even jewelry. Especially given the ring's power of seduction over those mortals that see it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Per Tolkien's letters, Sauron did take the Ring with him:

"Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning*: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them.)"

That's very interesting, since it puts a significant chunk of the blame on the elves.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Interesting. I never really went over the letters. It seems odd that they would allow him to keep anything, even jewelry. Especially given the ring's power of seduction over those mortals that see it.

I would imagine the master of the ring could make the ring itself invisible.

Especially if no one had been warned to look for it.

It does raise the issue of how did the ring get from the bottom of the sea back to Middle Earth? Maybe inside a fish?

Oh, we already had Galadriel swimming hundreds of miles, didn't we (I imagined Dory singing to her)! Maybe Sauron does the same!

 

[Maxperson]

I would imagine the master of the ring could make the ring itself invisible.

Especially if no one had been warned to look for it.

It does raise the issue of how did the ring get from the bottom of the sea back to Middle Earth? Maybe inside a fish?

Good point. That would have allowed him to have it with him. But now we're left with a conundrum. How the hell did he recover it from the bottom of the ocean, or even find it given the tidal wave that would have swept his body and the ring out to sea before it sank at some random location?

If he had it hidden back in Mordor, his spirit could have gone to it and used the power to reform. He didn't have the ability to intuitively know where the ring was, though, or poor Smeagol would never have found his precious since Sauron would have just gone to the river and recovered his body and the ring thousands of years before.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Sauron turns into a bat (no doubt remembering to shout "bat")?

 

[Dausuul]

That's very interesting, since it puts a significant chunk of the blame on the elves.

The Elves made a number of mistakes in the Second Age. Collaborating with Sauron to make the Rings in the first place was not the brightest of ideas, even if they didn't know who he was at the time.

(And the Elves of the Second Age were paragons of wisdom and restraint compared to the Elves of the First Age. The war of the Elves against Morgoth was a grand tragedy, and like a classic tragedy, it springs from the fatal flaws of the hero.)

I would imagine the master of the ring could make the ring itself invisible.

Very good point. Galadriel does this with her Ring in "Fellowship," so presumably Sauron could do the same if he wanted.

It does raise the issue of how did the ring get from the bottom of the sea back to Middle Earth? Maybe inside a fish?

A later quote from the same letter: "Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended."

 

[billd91]

I would imagine the master of the ring could make the ring itself invisible.

Especially if no one had been warned to look for it.

It does raise the issue of how did the ring get from the bottom of the sea back to Middle Earth? Maybe inside a fish?

Oh, we already had Galadriel swimming hundreds of miles, didn't we (I imagined Dory singing to her)! Maybe Sauron does the same!

It's also possible that if Sauron's form was destroyed while wearing the ring, it stayed with his "spirit of hatred" that went back to Middle Earth and reformed along with his corporeal form. When Sauron turns up again, it's only a little over a century. Contrast that with about 2400 years for his reappearance in the Third Age. This may be the difference between having the ring on him at time of defeat/destruction and not.