D&D General 6-8 encounters (combat?)

[Flamestrike]

That bold bit is the faulty foundation of confusion. You are assuming that players are fighting wotc's insane 6-8 encounter expectation because they consider the encounters to be tough. I've seen players do this:

• GM: up in the distance you see a couple zombies scattered around near the crypt
• Warlock player: Fireball from max range.
• Fighter: action surge with my longbow from that same range.
• gm: they die... they were only zombies, you guys are level 7 or something.
• Players: that's it?
• GM: you aren't even inside.
• Fighter & warlock Players: lets take a short rest
• Cleric & wizard: *sigh& yeas whatever rest I guess

and do it regularly.

Doom clocks are your friend.

When they're on the clock the above doesnt happen.

 

[Minigiant]

Really 6-8 encounters is too much.

PCs after level 5 lave too many standing "daily" resources.

It works for long dungeons. The game is called Dungeons and Dragons.

But it does not work outside the Dungeon. Going 16 hours with only 2-3 hour long breaks doesn't make sense sense outside of a dungeon. Random encounter work but too many an it bec ok mes unrealistic and forced.

5e has made me think that D&D is better taught as 8 hour chunks with 1 break of 30-60 minutes total instead of 16 hour chunks with 2-3 breaks of 2-3 hours total.

Fewer LR features. More SR features. Lower burden of resource drain of noncombat encounters.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

That bold bit is the faulty foundation of confusion. You are assuming that players are fighting wotc's insane 6-8 encounter expectation because they consider the encounters to be tough.

Well Actually, no I am not. You have come in a conversation as to why someone felt compelled to enforce the 6 to 8 encounters per day as a norm. I was questioning the need for this, would not fewer encounter do as well.

I've seen players do this:

• GM: up in the distance you see a couple zombies scattered around near the crypt
• Warlock player: Fireball from max range.
• Fighter: action surge with my longbow from that same range.
• gm: they die... they were only zombies, you guys are level 7 or something.
• Players: that's it?
• GM: you aren't even inside.
• Fighter & warlock Players: lets take a short rest
• Cleric & wizard: *sigh& yeas whatever rest I guess

and do it regularly. recovery in 5e is so trivialized that players feel encouraged to freely run about in super mode while still expecting the GM to provide interesting challenges.

Spoiler: This kinda thing doesn't get made without good reason

First off, I have never seen this or anything remotely like it. From the example it appears the Wizard and Cleric players are not happy. So, perhaps, a nice chat around the table is in order about expectations with regard to the rest mechanic. Finally, if they are resting near the scene of the last combat then a rest interruption with a more deadly combat seems in order.

However, it occurs to me that in a conversation about the 6 to 8 encounter working day, why specifically do you want to discuss with me about the trivial nature of rest in D&D?
I am not in favour of the 6 to 8 encounter paradigm nor do I have an issue with the resting mechanics as is.

Edit: re-read the post chain. I would re iterate that if people are resting after every encounter, then a chat with all concerned is in order as to what kind of game we are playing. I would do this because there is a very good chance of a mismatch of expectations at work here.
I still do not see the need for a Tuckers Kobolds like arms race either.

Switching deadly or a mix of deadly and hard encounters should do the trick and there is nothing wrong with the party failing the adventure.
After if they rest too much then the stars algin and the thing happens.

 

[tetrasodium]

Doom clocks are your friend.

When they're on the clock the above doesnt happen.

No they are not because recovery is poorly designed in 5e... Also....

It creates situation where the gm is forced into choosing between a MAD style arms race of escalating encounters, a boring snooze of "trash" encounters in loop, or an escalating workload pushed onto the GM to thwart those with things like tuckers kobolds or bulletproof doom clocks that require an ever growing amount of prep & overhead to prepare & run.

When every adventure is channeling half minute hero frustrations will rise & people will burn out. Don't forget that a warlock fireball & fighter action surge are short rest abilities.

 

[Flamestrike]

Really 6-8 encounters is too much.

PCs after level 5 lave too many standing "daily" resources.

It works for long dungeons. The game is called Dungeons and Dragons.

But it does not work outside the Dungeon.

AD = 'Adventuring day'. An arbitrary amount of time between long rest resource recharges, featuring at least 1 encounter. Could be 24 hours, could be a month or more (if using the Gritty realism variant).

1) Not every AD needs to be 6-8 encounters. Some AD's can feature just the one. A DM can up the difficulty on those days if he wants, knowing the PCs will be at full strength and able to Nova more safely. Expect Wizards and other Long rest classes to excel in these days.

2) Some AD's can be more than 6-8 encounters. An environment where the PCs cant safely long rest, and are on a doom clock to finish for example. Clearing out a massive dungeon level, before the BBEG completes his evil ritual. Expect Rogues and Short rest classes to excel in these days.

3) DMs should throw days down that resemble 1 (above) - a 'random' encounter that the PCs think they can Nova, where (at the conclusion of the encounter) they discover the hook, and realize they're actually now on a Doom clock.

Example, the fully rested party are on their way to a town when they're ambushed by a bunch of Bandits. The PCs smugly nova the encounter, curb stomping the Bandits. When searching the bodies they discover a caravan containing a prisoner. He informs them he has come from the bandit camp, a few hours away containing other prisoners. The Bandits plan to hand the prisoners over to a nefarious cult, for them to be sacrificed at midnight!

Do that every now and then, and stick to the 6 encounters per long rest median often enough, and your players will naturally conform to that campaign expectation and will self-police resource use.

 

[Flamestrike]

No they are not because recovery is poorly designed in 5e... Also....

Use a rest variant. They literally give you options in the DMG.

Would the above happen if you were using the Gritty rest variant, and the PCs had to camp outside the Dungeon for a whole day to recover short rest stuff, or a whole week for long rest stuff?

If the answer is still yes, the problem is probably best served with a different solution because your players are abusing the 5MWD.

 

[tetrasodium]

Well Actually, no I am not. You have come in a conversation as to why someone felt compelled to enforce the 6 to 8 encounters per day as a norm. I was questioning the need for this, would not fewer encounter do as well.

First off, I have never seen this or anything remotely like it. From the example it appears the Wizard and Cleric players are not happy. So, perhaps, a nice chat around the table is in order about expectations with regard to the rest mechanic. Finally, if they are resting near the scene of the last combat then a rest interruption with a more deadly combat seems in order.

However, it occurs to me that in a conversation about the 6 to 8 encounter working day, why specifically do you want to discuss with me about the trivial nature of rest in D&D?
I am not in favour of the 6 to 8 encounter paradigm nor do I have an issue with the resting mechanics as is.

Um...

So why is it bothering the DM if the players do not care or notice. What does it matter to the DM if the party chooses a 5MWD?

Personally I generally do not care about general encounters. I will try and make Boss Fight hard or deadly but I generally do not put a clock or force the pace.
I have noticed though that players tend to overestimate the difficulty of encounters and I try to push the party a little further if I am a player.

the trivialized rest & recovery mechanics encourage & empower the 5mwd & dramatically raises the bar for a gm to squeeze in the unreasonable number of encounters 5e designed classes to handle. Players don't engage in 5mwd in 5e because "the players think the encounters are tough", they do it because wotc designed the game to push that

 

[Minigiant]

Doom clocks are your friend.

When they're on the clock the above doesnt happen.

IMHO D&D doom clocks are dumb.

Because they are contrived...

Example, the fully rested party are on their way to a town when they're ambushed by a bunch of Bandits. The PCs smugly nova the encounter, curb stomping the Bandits. When searching the bodies they discover a caravan containing a prisoner. He informs them he has come from the bandit camp, a few hours away containing other prisoners. The Bandits plan to hand the prisoners over to a nefarious cult, for them to be sacrificed at midnight!

Do that every now and then, and stick to the 6 encounters per long rest median often enough, and your players will naturally conform to that campaign expectation and will self-police resource use.

Why is it tonight?

If they are sacrificing people why are the bandits travelling with a potential sacrifice now? Clocking ticking.

Why would they run a dungeon if they just novaed out?

Every adventure day being "You gotta finish TONIGHT or everyone DIES" over and over is lame.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Um...

the trivialized rest & recovery mechanics encourage & empower the 5mwd & dramatically raises the bar for a gm to squeeze in the unreasonable number of encounters 5e designed classes to handle. Players don't engage in 5mwd in 5e because "the players think the encounters are tough", they do it because wotc designed the game to push that

ok, leaving aside the fact that I have never seen a 5mwd (nor in 3.x when this thing first reared its head) but this is not universal. It clearly does not happen at every table and to a that extent it is a choice of the players at that table. So, the players want it, they are the ones choosing to rest after all. What difference does it make to the DM?

 

[Flamestrike]

IMHO D&D doom clocks are dumb.

Because they are contrived...

Hahahaha. Literally everything in every adventure is contrived. A DM literally sits down during the week and contrives the whole adventure! He draws the map, populates it with monsters (appropriate CR for the party he's DMing) plans the hook, stocks it with treasure, decides where the dungeon is, and so forth.

Temporal constraints are no more contrived that spatial constraints or encounter balancing for your party, or anything else.

Tell me, if you were to write a novel or a show, do the protagonists have all the time in the world to rest and chill out, or is there some kind of temporal restraint involved (a ticking bomb that needs to be defused, Colonel Matrix has to rescue his daughter before Mendoza finds out he's not on the plane, the Death Star needs to be blown up before it blows up Yavin 4, Winter is coming etc)?

In your real world life do you have a job? Do you have to be at work at a certain time? Hand in or complete projects by a certain time? When on holidays do you have infinite time? Can you just come back whenever? Do you need to be at the airport at a certain time? Do your bills need to be paid by a certain time? Etc etc

Temporal constraints are so often missing entirely from quests and games I see ran and it unrealistic, boring, gives the world a flat and non-reactive and non alive feeling, does nothing to drive the narrative or give a sense of impetus to the adventure, and is just wrong on so many levels.

Why is it tonight?

For the same reason its Bandits, and the encounter happened in the first place. The DM designed the quest this way.

Not all Doom clocks will be 'tonight'. Just this one. You mix it up. Just like you mix up your AD's. Some AD's will have a single encounter and that's it. Some will have doom clocks. Some will have 6 encounters and plenty of opportunity to short rest. Some will have an environment that prohibits long resting at all. Etc.

Not. Every. Day. Is. The. Same.

Some days the casters will shine. Some days the martials will. The spotlight moves.

Feature, not a bug.

Every adventure day being "You gotta finish TONIGHT or everyone DIES" over and over is lame.

Why are you saying that? I literally said the exact opposite in my post. I literally said some days will feature a single encounter with no doom clock at all. And at no stage did I say every adventure (or indeed even most adventures) need to have a midnight doom clock.

Some adventures the clock will be nebulous. Some adventures it'll be a longer term one (like ToA). Some adventures itll be midnight. Some adventures it'll be a week from now. The clock varies, and sometimes it doesnt exist at all.

Address what I did say, without hyperbole or putting words in my mouth I didnt actually say please?