D&D General 6-8 encounters (combat?)

[Flamestrike]

ok, leaving aside the fact that I have never seen a 5mwd (nor in 3.x when this thing first reared its head) but this is not universal. It clearly does not happen at every table and to a that extent it is a choice of the players at that table. So, the players want it, they are the ones choosing to rest after all. What difference does it make to the DM?

DnD is a resource management game (mechanically). Literally all its abilities are x/rest and it uses HP attrition (another resource) to resolve combat.

You spend your time accumulating XP and GP (another resource).

That's the mechanical truth of it. Many players (intentionally or otherwise) will cotton on to this early and will seek to use or abuse the 5MWD.

Not all of them, but a significant number.

 

[Minigiant]

Hahahaha. Literally everything in every adventure is contrived. A DM literally sits down during the week and contrives the whole adventure! He draws the map, populates it with monsters (appropriate CR for the party he's DMing) plans the hook, stocks it with treasure, decides where the dungeon is, and so forth.

Temporal constraints are no more contrived that spatial constraints or encounter balancing for your party, or anything else.

Tell me, if you were to write a novel or a show, do the protagonists have all the time in the world to rest and chill out, or is there some kind of temporal restraint involved (a ticking bomb that needs to be defused, Colonel Matrix has to rescue his daughter before Mendoza finds out he's not on the plane, the Death Star needs to be blown up before it blows up Yavin 4, Winter is coming etc)?

In your real world life do you have a job? Do you have to be at work at a certain time? Hand in or complete projects by a certain time? When on holidays do you have infinite time? Can you just come back whenever? Do you need to be at the airport at a certain time? Do your bills need to be paid by a certain time? Etc etc

Temporal constraints are so often missing entirely from quests and games I see ran and it unrealistic, boring, gives the world a flat and non-reactive and non alive feeling, does nothing to drive the narrative or give a sense of impetus to the adventure, and is just wrong on so many levels

There are levels of suspension of disbelief.

16 hour doom clocks break my tolerance if they happen too often

For the same reason its Bandits, and the encounter happened in the first place. The DM designed the quest this way.

Not all Doom clocks will be 'tonight'. Just this one. You mix it up. Just like you mix up your AD's. Some AD's will have a single encounter and that's it. Some will have doom clocks. Some will have 6 encounters and plenty of opportunity to short rest. Some will have an environment that prohibits long resting at all. Etc.

Not. Every. Day. Is. The. Same.

Some days the casters will shine. Some days the martials will. The spotlight moves.

It's every day when the classes are balanced.

A doom clock and forcing 6-8 encounters on the days when ever class is balanced is weird or off to me. It blatantly feels manufactured instead of subtly being so.

That's why I think a 3-6 encounter adventure day is better. 3-6 feels more natural. You can go to 1-2 encounters to boost long rest classes or 7-9 encounters to boost short rest classes.

You can do 2 adventure days in 24 hours. 8 hours of 3-5 encounters. 8 hours long rest. 8 hours of 3-5 encounters. Return to safe haven.

6-8 is too many and only exists to balance long rest classes having a TON of resources and having to burn 75% of them because they have flexible casting now.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

DnD is a resource management game (mechanically). Literally all its abilities are x/rest and it uses HP attrition (another resource) to resolve combat.

You spend your time accumulating XP and GP (another resource).

That's the mechanical truth of it. Many players (intentionally or otherwise) will cotton on to this early and will seek to use or abuse the 5MWD.

Not all of them, but a significant number.

And they will find that it is not fun, or they want that kind of game, and it is fun. The 5mwd is only a problem when someone has a problem with it, otherwise, we are white room theory crafting.
My point is that if this is an issue then perhaps discuss it first before putting on the fun police hat and start redesigning the game.
We are not going to get a design without some exploits

 

[Yaarel]

Social encounters almost never use up resources. If that doesn't matter to your idea, then we're back to resource recovery whenever "the story" demands it. Quite frankly, that's a different game.

Social encounters that dont use up combat resources are already part of 5e since 2014.

Social encounters were part of 4e and skill challenges.

Social encounters were part of 3e and diplomancers.

Social encounters have been part of D&D since 1e, when any gp acquired from social encounters went toward leveling.

Social encounters − and the benefits from them − are D&D.

 

[Flamestrike]

It's every day when the classes are balanced.

Classes dont have to be balanced every day. No-one is saying they do, and no-one is saying 'thou must enforce 6-8 encounters and 2-3 short rests on your party via doom clocks every adventuring day.

Stop. Read.

Let me show you an example of some adventures taking a group of PCs going from 5th to 6th level. A total of 4 adventuring days:

On returning from their last quest, where they advanced to 5th level (and resting up and sorting out admin) they're approached by a High priest they've previously had interactions with and are friendly too. His divinations have revealed that an enemy they thought was vanquished several levels ago, has come back from the dead as a foul undead monster, and seeks to finish the evil he started in life! The PCs track him down to a dungeon (taking a few days, and with one of those days featuring a Deadly random encounter (AD 1)), the entrance of which is a mysterious portal. Entering, they find it's a one way magical gate, trapping them within!

Unbeknown to the PCs the entire dungeon is a trap, designed by their old foe to suck the life force out of them and kill them, sucking their energy and syphoning it to himself. Every hour that passes, the PCs must make a DC 10 Con save, or gain 1 level of exhaustion, and lose 1 spell slot of the highest level they know as the eldritch energies drain magical and life force from them. For every 5 failed saves, the BBEG gains 1 legendary action and 1 more legendary save.

[the dungeon has 6-8 encounters in it, with a final showdown with the BBEG at the end] (AD 2)

Returning from the dungeon, the PCs find that the High Priest has mysteriously disappeared. Later that evening, one of the PCs receives a 25 word message from the Priest, cast via a Sending spell (he found a bit of copper wire in his cell, before being knocked unconscious by the guards and bound). He relays that he has been captured by an evil cult, who plan to sacrifice him in 3 days time at the Midwinter solstace, and gives the PCs a clue about where to find him.

On their way to the cult lair, they get a Deadly random encounter on one of the days (AD 3) before reaching the cult lair just in time to raid it and save him before the ritual is complete (9 encounters, time for 3 short rests) (AD 4).

That's 4 adventuring days, with the Caster likely shining on days 1 and 3 and the Martials likely shining on days 2 and 4.

Overall balance is maintained, and the spotlight moves from PC to PC. Everyone has a chance to shine, the stakes are high, nothing is contrived, and the adventure is propelled forward with impetus and win/lose effects in order.

 

[Fanaelialae]

And they will find that it is not fun, or they want that kind of game, and it is fun. The 5mwd is only a problem when someone has a problem with it, otherwise, we are white room theory crafting.
My point is that if this is an issue then perhaps discuss it first before putting on the fun police hat and start redesigning the game.
We are not going to get a design without some exploits

I would say that it's a problem in a similar sense to a player saying, "I walk up to the king, punch him in the face, put his crown on my head, and then everyone kneels before me in submission." And everyone at the table accepting this as what happens.

There are undoubtedly players who would enjoy that. There are also players (and GMs) who wouldn't want to be at a table where that is permitted. I agree that if everyone at the table is on board, it's not an issue. However, IME not everyone is necessarily on the same page.

The wizard might want to rest because they've nova'd their spells, while the fighter and rogue want to push on because they're still good for the day. And the DM wants them to push on because some of the DM's fun comes from challenging the players, which the 5MWD undercuts.

I agree regarding talking to your players.

That said, I think that there's nothing wrong with having mechanics that incentivize the players to push on. It is a game, after all, and some behaviors are rewarded (killing goblins and taking their stuff) while others typically aren't (role playing shopping for an entire session will net you very few experience points under many DMs).

Unfortunately, traditionally pretty much all of these WRT the 5MWD have been disincentives (with the exception of 4e milestones). I agree with the poster from earlier in the thread who said that incentives to press on would be a great addition to the game (even if they're only an optional module that I can use and someone else can ignore because they prefer the more traditional, punitive disincentives). For example, the 13th Age RPG has a d6 that increments after every encounter. The value on the die gets added to all PC attacks, and some abilities key off a high value on this die, meaning that the players have a mechanical incentive to press forward, even if some of their resources have depleted.

 

[Yaarel]

The game up until 3e was balanced around death. Hit points were relatively low, tons of spells, abilities and pretty much all poisons were save or die. In 3e it went to stat damage rather than death for most poisons, but a lot of save or die was still there. I don't know what 4e was balanced around, but 5e is balanced around resource management and encounters per day.

Yeah.

5e balances around contributing equally to the combat pillar. In this sense, different classes refresh their combat resources in different circumstances: namely short rest versus long rest. They run out of combat resources at different times. Thus they become imbalanced in combat depending on which kind of the rest the DM implements.

 

[Flamestrike]

And they will find that it is not fun, or they want that kind of game, and it is fun. The 5mwd is only a problem when someone has a problem with it, otherwise, we are white room theory crafting.
My point is that if this is an issue then perhaps discuss it first before putting on the fun police hat and start redesigning the game.
We are not going to get a design without some exploits

Oh I agree an out of game chat is best (dont try and abuse the rest mechanic at this table please).

I prefer temporal constraints for other reasons. They simply make the game more fun, and drive the story forward. PCs actions matter, and round by round decisions (do I action surge now, or save it for later?) are important.

Its a lot better than mashing buttons in a nova strike where time simply doesnt matter, and the world doesnt care if you take a week off to put your feet up.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah.

5e balances around contributing equally to the combat pillar. In this sense, different classes refresh their combat resources in different circumstances: namely short rest versus long rest. They run out of combat resources at different times. Thus they become imbalanced in combat depending on which kind of the rest the DM implements.

Your conclusion is kind of in error.

Classes are balanced around 6 or so encounters and 2 or so short rests per long rest.

As long as that median is met (not every AD needs to feature this median, some days are longer, and some shorter, some with more short rests and some with none) overall, balance is just fine.

 

[FrozenNorth]

The issue, which I've witnessed on multiple occasions in my own games, is that the fighter's longevity (their alleged advantage over the wizard's "limited" spell slots) is contingent on luck.

Luck plays a role in a different way as well. Let’s say the party is attacking a corrupt noble’s manor. The DM prepares 10 encounters, some combats, some traps, some other stuff.

Maybe, by the time the party confronts the corrupt noble, they have had the recommended 6-8 encounters. Very likely, the missed some encounters making the actual number of encounters closer to 4-5, and sometimes as little as 3. However, it is very unlikely that they would have run into all 10, but of course, the DM still has to design 10 different encounters.